当 AI 智能体能够替你付款，支付系统会怎样变化？

简要描述Brief Description

当 AI 智能体可以花你的钱时，会发生什么？What Happens When AI Agents Can Spend Your Money?

目录Table of Contents

• 简介
  Intro
• 支付凭证究竟是什么
  What a payment credential actually is
• 当智能体商务改变游戏规则时
  When agentic commerce changed the game
• 钱包之战
  The wallet wars
• Stripe：智能体商业领域的 AOL
  Stripe as the AOL of agentic commerce
• 新型智能体代币标准
  The new agentic token standard
• 每笔交易背后的三项检查
  The three checks behind every transaction
• 亚马逊为何封禁 Muse
  Why Amazon blocked Muse
• 过度炒作与关注不足
  Over-hyped vs under-hyped
• VGS 的下一步发展方向
  Where VGS goes next

简介Intro

过去三个月里，我们经历了一个巨大的飞跃：智能体从我所谓的“旁观者”变成了“行动者”，因为它们实际上有了手臂和腿——也就是支付凭证。亚马逊最近封禁了 Muse，原因有很多。你可以对智能体商业采取对抗态度，也可以非常欢迎它。随着 Muse 和 Instinct 的兴起，情况是这样的：一旦它们获得了支付凭证，实用性就会提升。所以，我们可以说已经开启了我所谓的“钱包大战”，如今每个钱包都在争先恐后地与智能体连接。我敢打包票，收听这档播客的每个人，都有一项凭证存储在 VGS。In the last 3 months, we've had this huge leap from agents being what I would call spectators to agents being actors because they effectively have arms and legs, which are payment credentials. Amazon recently blocked Muse and there are many reasons for this. You can either be antagonistic to agent commerce or you can be highly receptive. What's happened with the rise of, you know, Muse and Instinct is once they have access to payment credentials, their utility increases. So, we sort of have kicked off what I kind of call the wallet wars where every wallet is now rushing to connect to the agents. Everybody who's listening to this podcast, I almost guarantee you have a credential that's stored at VGS.

主持人：最大的在线商户、最大的数字银行以及最大的前沿实验室，都在使用 VGS 来保护支付凭证。这是一个非常令人瞩目的地位。你觉得 VGS 将走向何方？我认为我们正在……Host: The largest online merchants, the largest neo banks, and the largest frontier labs all use VGS to secure payment credentials. It's a really formidable position to be in. Where do you think VGS is going to go? I think we are.

嘉宾：大家好。我是 Alex Rampel，……的合伙人。Guest: Hi everyone. I'm Alex Rampel, partner at

支付凭证究竟是什么What a payment credential actually is

我是 Andre 和 Horwitz，今天和我一起的是 Terry Angelos。我很高兴能和 Terry 一起，因为我和 Terry 于 2006 年创办了一家公司，叫 Trial Pay。那已经是很久以前了，20 年前。Andre and Horwitz and I'm here joined by Terry Angelos and I'm very excited about being joined by Terry because uh Terry and I started a company called Trial Pay in 2006. Um long long time ago, 20 years ago.

主持人：20年前，Alex看起来很不一样。Host: 20 years ago. Alex looked very different.

嘉宾：是啊。呃，你看起来还是老样子。所以我觉得你是在损我，而我是在夸你，希望不是反过来。呃，不过今天真正有意思的部分来了。呃，我最早在这里投资的公司之一叫 VGS，全称是 very good security（非常好的安全）。有些人可能没听出来这其实是个双关或笑话，因为最著名的密码学公司之一叫 PGP，全称是 pretty good privacy（相当不错的隐私保护）。显然，它是 very good priv（非常好的隐私保护），不只是相当不错的隐私保护，而是极其出色的隐私保护，是坚不可摧的隐私保护，因为你知道，要把非常大的合数分解成它们的质因数是非常难的。而所谓“相当不错的隐私保护”，实际上已经非常好了。所以这大概就是 very good security 这个名字最初的由来。很久以前，这笔投资是我领投的。Guest: Yes. Uh you look the same. So I I think you're insulting me and I'm complimenting you and hopefully not the other way around. Um but today, this is the really cool part. Um, I one of my first investments here was a company called VGS, which stands for very good security. And some people might not get that that's actually a pun or a joke because one of the most famous cryptography uh companies was called PGP, which is pretty good privacy. And obviously, it's very good priv. It's not just pretty good privacy. It's incredible privacy. It's unbreakable privacy because that's how you know it's very hard to uh to factor very large composite numbers into their primes. And pretty good privacy is actually very good. So that was kind of the original name for very good security. So I I led this investment a long time ago.

TrialPay 被 Visa 收购了。在你的领导下，Visa 投资了 VGS，而现在你又回来了，和我一起担任 VGS 的首席战略官和董事会成员。Um trial pay got bought by Visa. Visa under your leadership invested in VGS and now you're you're back and you're the chief strategy officer and board member alongside me at VGS.

主持人：是的。呃，这一路走来确实非常有趣，也令人难以置信。我认为，如果你看看今天的 VGS，它是一家支付基础设施企业。按 GMV 计算，我们为约三分之一的电商业务提供支付凭证安全保障。大型线上商户、大型新兴银行以及大型前沿实验室都在使用 VGS 来保护支付凭证。我认为，我们今天想谈谈智能体商务，部分原因就在于 VGS 正在帮助智能体获取这些凭证，帮助钱包将这些凭证交给智能体，也帮助需要接收这些凭证的商户。因此，我们正处在这些非常有趣的讨论和凭证交接过程的中心。Host: Yeah. Uh it's been a you know very fun and you know incredible journey and um I think uh if you look at VGS today it's a it's a payment infrastructure business. Um we secure credentials for about a third of all um e-commerce by by GMV. Uh and we have you know the largest online merchants we have the largest neo banks and the largest frontier labs all use VGS to secure payment credentials. And I think today, you know, part of the reason why we want to talk about Agentic Commerce is because VGS is uh involved in helping agents get those credentials, helping wallets hand those credentials to agents and also to merchants who have to receive these credentials. And so we're sort of in the middle of these really interesting conversations and and and handovers between credentials.

嘉宾：不过，也许我们应该深入聊聊什么是凭证。我的意思是，对大多数普通人来说，凭证就是信用卡的一种高级说法。真要细究起来，事情会复杂一些。不过，你们合作的商家——我不知道哪些商家的名字可以说。你们和所有大型商家都有合作。我们不妨举一个你们合作的商家为例，在 AI 和代理式商务出现之前，解释一下你们具体做什么：他们为什么使用 VGS？用你们来做什么？你们的服务覆盖有多广？是的，假设我们合作的是一家非常大型的在线订购平台。那么，每当有新客户访问该网站并提交信用卡信息时，这家公司实际上都必须保存这张信用卡。但他们未必希望接触到卡号本身，因此 VGS 会负责接收这张卡，安全地将其保存在保险库中。Guest: But maybe we should dig into what a credential is. is I mean credential is a is a fancy way of saying a credit card for most you know for for lay people. It gets a little more complicated than that when you really dig into it. But um you work with I I don't know which which merchants I'm allowed to say that you work with. You work with all the big ones, but like why don't we take it why don't we take an example merchant um that you work with kind of preAI pre-agented commerce and just explain what you do like why do they use VGS? What do they use you for and how pervasive is it? Yeah, let's assume we're working with like a very large um you know online ordering platform and so we have um you know that that company effectively uh has to store your credit card every time that you every time that a new customer comes onto that site and hands over um you know a credit card that company doesn't necessarily want to be exposed to that card number and so VGS is is involved in capturing that card, securely vaulting it and storing it.

每次在线订购服务想要与它的某个支付处理商进行交易时，它都会访问保险库并取回相关信息，这样在线订购公司就完全不必接触支付信息。我认为，自从你们最初投资以来，VGS 变得更有吸引力的原因之一，是过去十年来它逐渐成为最受信赖的在线保险库；与此同时，卡组织也推出了一种令牌化形式。所以在我们当年做 TrialPay 的时候，我们实际上会存储一个 16 位的 PAN，然后会把它加密。And every time that that the you know online ordering service wants to um you know transact with one of its processors, it goes to the vault and retrieves the information uh in such a way that the uh the online ordering company never actually has to touch the payment information. Now, one of the things that I think has made VGS a lot more interesting since the days that you first invested, it's been a decade of becoming sort of the most trusted vault online is that the card networks have also introduced a form of tokenization. So that in our days back in trial pay, we would actually store a 16-digit pen and we would like we would, you know, encrypt it.

主持人：一支笔是一个主账号。Host: A pen is a primary account number.

嘉宾：一支笔是一个主账号号码，Guest: A pen is a primary account number,

主持人：信用卡号。就是你知道的、你卡上的那个 16 位数字。我们会把它加密并存入保险库，然后等到要向某人收费时，再把它解密，交给我想应该是当时的 Chase Payment Tech。如今情况不同了。现在，我们不会存储并使用那个 16 位卡号，而是联系发行这张卡的卡组织，比如 Visa、Mastercard、MX、Discover，然后说：“我想要这张卡的另一个版本，它仅绑定到我的商户域名。”这样更安全，因为如果出了问题，我持有的这个号码也只能在我的商户域名下使用。我会在把它发送给 Chase Payment 时使用这个号码。VGS 公司会代表商户将所有这些凭证存入保险库，也会获取所有网络令牌——这是如今将这些凭证传递给支付处理商和卡组织的主要方式。这就是我们现在所做的。Host: credit card number. It's the 16-digit number that you are, you know, you know, that you have on your on your card. We would we would encrypt it and vault it and then when it came time to charge someone, we might unencrypt it and give it to I think Chase Payment Tech back in those days. Today, that doesn't happen. Today, instead, what happens is rather than store that that that 16-digit um card number and use that, you actually go to the network that issued it. So, Visa, Mastercard, MX, Discover, and you say, I would like another version of this card that's actually domain bound just to my merchant domain, which is safer because if I ever get there's ever a problem, the only number that I have only works on my merchant domain and I am going to use this when I send it to Chase Payment. So VGS as a company vaults all these credentials on behalf of the of the merchant also gets all of the network tokens which is the primary way that these credentials are passed to the payment processor and to the network um and that's what we do today.

所以，嗯，正因为要与卡组织交互，还要通过多个处理商来完成这些操作，事情才会这么复杂。那我想问你个问题，Alex。如果你是一家 GMV 超过十亿美元的商户，后端接入了多少家支付处理商？And so um because of that complexity of interacting with the card networks and doing this across multiple processors. So actually here's a question for you Alex. If you're a merchant with over a billion dollars in GMV, how many payment processors do you have on the back end?

嘉宾：嗯，这得看情况。呃，有很多都只有一个，但但你们更好。我的意思是，不过这就涉及 VGS 的使用场景了，Guest: Well, it depends. Uh there there are plenty that just have one, but but you are better. I mean, but this goes to the use case of of VGS,

主持人：也就是说，你不想被绑定在某一家支付处理商上，呃，你更希望把它拆分开来，可以自由选择使用哪家支付处理商。但如果你们有一种共享基础设施来存储凭证，万一某个凭证失效了呢？比如说，我刚好有一张 Capital One 卡。好例子。Capital One 收购了 Discover 卡。对，或者说 Discover 网络。然后我那张很酷的 Capital One 返现奖励卡，1.5% 返现的 Visa 卡，就变成了一张 Discover 卡。Host: which is rather than being locked into one payment processor, uh you'd rather unbundle that and you'd rather be able to pick and choose which payment processor you use. But also if you if you have a kind of a a shared infrastructure that is storing credentials, what if one credential goes bad? Like what what if my I just had a Capital One card. Great example. Capital One bought Discover card. Yeah. Or Discover Network and then my my fancy Capital One cashback rewards 1.5% Visa card. It became a Discover card

嘉宾：而且每周我都会收到那些非常难过的商家的通知，说“我们无法处理您的银行卡”。他们为什么无法处理我的卡？因为那个旧卡号已经不存在了，尽管我的账户还在，我和第一资本银行的关系也还在。我只是从他们那里拿到了一个新的卡号。是啊，Guest: and every week I get like notifications from very sad merchants. we are unable to process your card. Why are they unable to process my card? Because that old card number doesn't exist anymore even though I have the same I still have a relationship with Capital One. I just got a new card number from them. Yeah,

主持人：当然，这有点复杂。它是在一个新的网络上。比如，商户也可能不能直接说：“哦，我们已经看到、知道这张卡变成了那张卡。单个商户不能这么做。”Host: granted it's a little bit complicated. It's on a on a new network. Like there's also the possibility like merchants can't just say, "Oh, we've seen we know that this card became that card. One merchant cannot do that."

嘉宾：是的。Guest: Yeah.

主持人：但大型金库可以做到这一点。然后，正如你所知道的，嗯，Visa、Mastercard，实际上还有 Discover 这些网络本身都有账户更新工具。对。Host: But a large vault can do that. And then as as you know the um the actual networks themselves like Visa and Mastercard and actually Discover too, they have these account updating tools. Yeah.

主持人：所以你可以说：“嘿，我是商家。我有这些信用卡号。”我想每年大概有 10% 的卡会过期，对吧？Host: So you could say, "Hey, I'm a merchant. I have all of these card numbers." And I think what is it every year like 10% of cards expire?

嘉宾：是的。所以，每年大约有三分之一的卡片会被翻过来。不，比例还要更高。Guest: Yeah. So about a third of all cards get turned over every single year. No, even more

主持人：大概是25%，从数学上来说，因为它是四年到期。Host: like like 25% mathematically because it's a it's a four-year expiration

嘉宾：还有另外 5%，因为你知道，在这种情况下，可能是 Capital One 收购 Discover，也可能是欺诈，或者其他什么原因。所以，回到那个问题，顺便说一下，对于一家规模大约有十亿美元的商户来说，它会有大约三到五家支付处理商。那么现在……Guest: and another 5% due to you know in this case Capital One buying discover or fraud or or something else. So so you know back to that question by the way for a merchant of about of a billion dollars it's about three to five processors that that merchant will have. So now

主持人：他们不必】【：】【“】【Host: they don't have to

嘉宾：呃，他们不一定非得这么做，但应该指出来。那，那就是我们所看到的平均水平，你知道，你知道，在…… across theGuest: uh they don't have to but they should point. That that is the average that we see you know you know across the

主持人：但他们这样做是有原因的，因为你知道，不同的成本、不同的审批率、不同的地区——比如说，你想进行分片。Host: but there's a reason for them to do that because you know different costs different approval rates different regions like you want to shard

嘉宾：正确Guest: correct

主持人：用计算机科学的术语来说，你手上有所有这些卡，如果你每次都说“我只用同一个处理器”，这并不是个好主意；或者说，不如使用多个处理器来得好。但要做到这一点，我必须能够安全地把卡号发送给我选定的处理器。是的，没错。事实上，一旦有了多个处理器，托管卡片数据并获取更新的工作量就会随着处理器数量增加而成倍增长。所以，作为一家商户，我也许有一亿张卡，但就得在 Chase 存一亿张，在 Stripe 存一亿张，在 Braintree 存一亿张。每个保险库都必须在各自的支付网络中更新。因此，VGS 所做的，就是代表商户提供独立、中立的保险库基础设施，负责托管卡片数据并进行更新，这样商户就可以通过 Stripe 将 Visa 令牌发送给商户，Host: in in kind of computer science terms you want to you have all of your cards and if you just say I use the same processor every single time that's just not a good idea or it's not as good of an idea as I can have multiple processors but in order to do that I have to be able to securely send the card number to the processor that I've chosen. Yeah, that's that's right. And in fact, once you have multiple processors, then the job of vaulting and getting updates is multiplied by the number of processors. So maybe I have a 100 million cards in as as a merchant, but I have to store 100 million with Chase and 100 million with Stripe and 100 million with Brainree. And each of those vaults have to be updated at at their networks. And so what what VGS does is serve as an independent vault neutral infrastructure on behalf of the merchants for the vaulting and the updates such that the merchant can then send a Visa token to the merchant via Stripe,

主持人：对吗？Host: right?

嘉宾：嗯，回到你说的那个 Capital One，那个烦人的 Capital One 问题。如果你是 VGS 商户，这种情况就不应该发生。所以，当 Capital One 从 Visa 切换到 Mastercard——抱歉，是从 Visa 切换到 Discover——时，有一些机制可以获取这些更新。嗯，当然，如果发生欺诈或其他情况，也是如此，而这正是 VGS 所发挥的作用。Guest: Um back to your kind of Capital One, you know, annoying Capital One uh issue. If you're a VGS merchant, that should not happen. So there are mechanisms when Capital One is switching from Visa to Mastercard to get sorry Visa to discover to get those updates. Um and certainly that's the case if there's fraud or something else and that's the role that that that VGS is playing.

当智能体商务改变游戏规则时When agentic commerce changed the game

主持人：是的，是的，没错。所以希望大家现在都对 Very Good Security（VGS）的业务有了很好的了解。那么，突然之间——这几年前还是门好生意呢。我是说，我一直以来都很看好它，然后现在突然冒出来一个叫“代理式商务”（Agentic Commerce）的东西。我想知道，世界会因此发生怎样的变化？而你们正处于这一变化的核心，因为我也不知道哪些与你们合作的公司可以说、哪些不能说，不过就这么说吧，很多 AI 公司都决定和 VGS 合作。为什么呢？原因是，如果我说：“嘿，帮我买束花。”如果我打开自己的聊天工具说：“嘿，我想给我妻子买束花。今天是母亲节。”要是我不买，她会生我的气；要是我买了，她就会很开心。Host: Yep. Yep. Exactly. So so hopefully everybody has a good understanding now of what very good security does um VGS does. So uh out of nowhere and this this was a good business years ago. I mean, I've I've been a believer for a long time and then this whole thing called Agentic Commerce showed up. Um, I guess how does the world change and you guys are at the center of this because again, I don't know I don't know what what companies that that work with you I'm allowed to say or not, but let's just say like a lot of AI companies have decided to to work with uh with VGS. And for what reason? Well, the reason is you don't if I say, "Hey, buy me flowers." If I go into my my little chat tool and say, "Hey, I'd like to buy flowers for my wife. It's Mother's Day." She'll get mad at me if I don't buy them, and she'll be happy if I do buy them.

请帮我买下它们。我不想提供我的信用卡信息。也许我确实想把信用卡号给——我们姑且称之为聊天应用吧。嗯，不过他们不想存储它。即使他们存了，也得把它传达给商家。那他们要怎么做呢？而且，更好的选择是找一个已经知道怎么做这件事的第三方。对。Please buy them. I don't want to give my credit. Maybe I do want to give my credit card number to we'll call it um chat app. Um but they don't want to store it. And then even if they do store it, they have to communicate it to the merchant. And how do they do that? And like the better option is you have a third party that already knows how to do this. Yeah.

嘉宾：所以你把它排除在范围之外。我是说，这挺有意思的。嗯，我不知道我们的听众是不是大多数都知道 PCI DSS 规则是什么，不过如果我没记错的话，它指的是支付卡倡议数字安全系统。我说对了吗？嗯，如果你听说过 PCI 合规，那就是说，如果你要做商户并接受信用卡付款，就有一份文件，我记得上次看的时候有 100 多页，列出了你必须遵守并持续维护的所有规则，才能符合 PCI 合规要求。那为什么符合 PCI 合规要求这么重要呢？因为每家银行都要求这样。除非符合 PCI 合规要求，否则你就不能处理信用卡交易。除非符合 PCI 合规要求，否则你就不能发行信用卡。这就是为什么它叫支付卡倡议。嗯，你知道，Visa 和 Mastercard 可能是竞争对手，但在这件事上他们意见一致：你必须符合 PCI 合规要求。Guest: So you you take out of scope. I mean it's interesting like um I don't know if most of our audience knows what the PCI DSS rules are but that's the payment card initiative digital security system if I remember correct. Did I get that right? Um, so if you've heard of PCI compliance that says, well, if you're going to be a merchant and you accept credit cards, there is a document, I think last time I read it, it was over a 100 pages of all of the rules that you have to do and maintain in order to be PCI compliant. And why is being PCI compliant very important? Because every bank demands it. You cannot process credit cards unless you are PCI compliant. You cannot issue credit cards unless you are PCI compliant. That's why it's this payment card initiative. It's all the um you know, Visa and Mastercard might be enemies, but on this they agree you have to be PCI compliant.

嗯，VGS 的一大好处是，它能让 PCI 合规不再成为你需要操心的事。所以你基本上可以说，我只要像经营普通企业一样经营我的业务就行了，不必遵守这上百页的规定。VGS 会专注处理这些，对吧？这也回到了我想给我亲爱的妻子买花，然后让我的聊天应用帮我办到这件事。事实证明，VGS 凭借其后端基础设施的定位，在这方面很有优势；而现在，它还能在整个流程中发挥相当关键的作用。Uh one of the nice things that VGS takes PCI compliance out of scope. So you don't you basically say I can just run my business like a normal business. I don't have to follow these 100 pages of rules. VGS just focuses on that, right? Which kind of goes back to like I want to buy flowers for my my beloved wife and I want to have my chat application do that for me. Turns out VGS is pretty well positioned here just by being the backend infrastructure, but now can take a a pretty vital role in this this whole process.

主持人：嗯，我是说，我我我觉得，过去三个月里，我们经历了一个巨大的飞跃：智能体从我所谓的旁观者变成了行动者。它们如何代表我采取行动？嗯，如果你以安全的方式向它们提供支付凭证，Host: Yeah, I mean I I I think you know in the last 3 months we've had this huge leap from agents being what I would call spectators to agents being actors. And how do they act on my behalf? Well, if you give them a payment credential in a safe way,

嘉宾：对，Guest: right,

主持人：我可以从为你妻子推荐鲜花，进一步做到替你买花。举个例子吧。就在昨晚，我和妻子还在讨论，要不要给我们七岁的儿子找一位钢琴老师。这事挺复杂的，因为得了解我们的日程安排——他每周有三天要踢足球，而且我们希望老师能上门授课。我们还得了解钢琴老师的日程安排。你知道，前段时间我问过 ChatGPT 这件事，也得到了一些推荐；但就在昨晚，我让一个智能体来处理，它替我完成了整个交易流程。它找到了好几位老师，问了我几个问题，核对了日程，还替我预约了第一节课。所以，这可比再把一项任务丢到我头上有用得多。Host: I can go from recommending the flowers for your wife to buying the flowers for your wife. So, like I'll give you an example. Like just last night, my wife and I have been talking about getting a piano teacher for our seven-year-old son. And it's complicated because we you have to know our schedule and he has soccer three days a week and we want someone who can come to the house. We have to know the schedule of the piano teacher. And you know, I asked chat GPT about this a while ago and I got some recommendations, but just last night I asked an agent and it did the entire transaction task for me. It found a bunch of people, asked me a few questions, checked the schedule and booked someone for, you know, for the very first lesson. So that is infinitely more useful than dumping yet another task on my doorstep.

所以，代理突然变得有用得多、实用得多，因为它们实际上有了手臂和腿——也就是支付凭证。随着 Muse、Instinct、Town 等 AI 代理的兴起，情况就是这样：一旦它们获得支付凭证，实用性就会提升。所以我们算是已经开启了……So, so agents have all of a sudden become significantly more helpful and useful because they effectively have arms and legs which are payment credentials. And so what what's happened with the rise of you know Muse and Instinct uh and Town and other AI agents is once they have access to payment credentials their utility increases. And so we sort of have kicked

钱包之争The wallet wars

从我所谓的“钱包大战”说起：现在每个钱包都在争相接入智能体。当然，作为一个智能体，我想要的钱包大致有两点：第一，已经在该钱包拥有凭证的消费者数量最多；第二，商户覆盖面非常广。所以你知道，现在这类公司包括 Stripe Link。大约有 3 亿消费者在 Link 拥有账户，约有 100 万商户使用 Link。还有 Shopify 的 Shop Pay，规模也差不多——嗯，消费者数量可能类似，商户则更接近 170 万家。off what I kind of call the wallet wars where every wallet is now rushing to connect to the agents. And of course as an agent I want a wallet that has sort of two things. One the the most number of consumers that already have a credential at that wallet and a wallet that has a very broad merchant reach. And so you know right now this is sort of companies like Stripe Link. They have about 300 million consumers have an account at link. About a million merchants use link. You have Shopify with Shopay similarish um you know consumer size probably more like 1.7 million merchants

嘉宾：对。Guest: right

主持人：那么还有 PayPal，你知道，它拥有超过4亿个账户，具体数字取决于你怎么衡量，不过他们大约有3000万商户。所以这些钱包正在连接智能体，我认为它们提供了更多实用功能。Host: then you have PayPal which has got you know over 400 million accounts depends on how you kind of you know sort of you know h how that's actually measured but they have on the order of 30 million merchants. So these wallets are connecting to the agents and I think are providing a lot more utility.

主持人：不过这倒挺有意思的，因为钱包之争已经持续一段时间了。记得吗，呃，咱们可不是在说老东家的坏话，记得 Vime 吗？Host: So it's interesting though because wallet wars have been around for a while. So remember uh not not to speak ill of our of our old employer, remember Vime?

来宾：是的。Guest: Yes.

主持人：没错。VME。Host: Right. VME.

嘉宾：VM 我。不过那是在那之前发生的事，我忘了。他们把名字改成了 Vime。但以前有过很多尝试。比如，为什么十到十五年前会有电子钱包之争？因为事实证明，成为消费者的默认保存凭证，对吧？就像我可以通过巴甫洛夫式的条件反射训练，让自己一看到鲜花就用 PayPal。这样一来，PayPal 就能从中获益。Guest: VM me. But it was something before that. I forgot. They changed the name to Vime. But there have been many attempts like why why were there wallet wars 10 or 15 years ago? Because it turns out that being the default stored credential for a consumer, right? Like if I can if I can get trained in a Pavlovian way where it's like oh I see flowers I use PayPal. Well PayPal is better off for that.

主持人：没错。Host: That's correct.

嘉宾：嗯，或者我们在 TrialPay 做过的事情之一是，Visa 怎么样……这对 Visa 很有好处。如果 Uber 钱包里的默认卡是 Visa，这对 Visa 的发卡银行也很有好处，因为 Uber 也是一个钱包。对。Guest: Um or one of the things that we worked on at Trial Pay was how does a Visa It's very good for Visa. It's very good for Visa's issuing banks if the default card in your Uber wallet because Uber is a wallet too. Yeah.

主持人：你可以在 Uber 里存储八张不同的卡或凭证。成为钱包中的首选支付方式非常非常重要，因为数字钱包出现时——我有点喜欢这么想——在数字钱包之前，你用的是我所谓的“死牛钱包”，你知道，就是一个真的钱包。我想我这里有一个，可以给观众演示一下。这叫“死牛钱包”，里面装着很多很多凭证。但在 Capital One 花钱请塞缪尔·L·杰克逊说“你的钱包里有什么？”之前，他们为什么要这么做？因为你去 Chipotle 时，他们希望你掏出你的“死牛钱包”，然后说：“我要用我的 Capital One 卡付款。”Host: You can store eight different cards or credentials within Uber. being the top of wallet is very very important because when digital wallets came out like I I kind of like to think before digital wallets you had what I like to call dead cow wallets you know an actual I think I have one here give a demo to our audience this is called a dead cow wallet um has lots of lots of credentials in there um but before Capital One would pay Samuel LJ Jackson to say what's in your wallet why would they do that because when you go to Chipotle they want you to pull out your dead cow wallet and say like I'm going to pay with my Capital one card.

来宾：是的。Guest: Yeah.

主持人：没错。而这就是数字钱包兴起时的背景：比如我是 Shop Pay，我是 PayPal，我想成为你的默认选项。然后有意思的是，在那个钱包里还有其他支付凭证，而那些公司都在争夺第一的位置。比如，如果你还记得我们在 Visa 时和 Uber、Airbnb 合作，当时发卡机构付了数千万美元。像 Chase 和 Amex 这样的公司，就是为了让这些平台优先使用它们的卡。所以这是一场竞争，也就是……Host: Right. And that was the whereas for when digital wallets emerged, it's like I'm shop pay, I'm PayPal, I want to be your default. And then actually what the interesting thing is like within that wallet, there were other credentials and those guys were competing to be the number one. Like if if you recall at at at Visa when we were dealing with Uber and Airbnb, there was tens of millions of dollars paid by the issuers. So like Chase and Ammex to prefer their cards on those platforms. So that's one war which is like

嘉宾：这是我的卡。我想让你知道，我想把它推到钱包的最上面。你说的是实际的网络之争，也就是 Visa 之争；我们曾帮助 Visa 成为 Uber 的默认卡。现在又多了一层，也就是 IMA 钱包这个抽象层，它实际处理交易，包括 Shop Pay、Link 和 PayPal。所以我们聊过，结账页面看起来有点像 NASCAR 赛车场，因为上面有好几个不同的按钮。Guest: this is my card. I want you know I want to sort of you know promote this to the to the to the top of wallet. You're talking about the actual network war where Visa and and we helped Visa become a default card at at at Uber and now you have this other layer, this abstraction layer of IMA wallet that actually processes the transaction, the shop pays, the links and the and the PayPals. And so we talked about how a checkout looks like a bit like NASCAR because you have multiple different buttons.

主持人：用 PayPal 付款，用 Google Checkout 付款。记得 Google Checkout 也是差不多那个时候推出的。Host: Pay with PayPal, pay with Google check. remember Google checkout came out along

嘉宾：他们又是另一种，不过就像有消费者钱包，然后也有商户钱包。因为有趣的是，我在某种程度上会把 VGS 看作商户钱包。我的意思是，这个比喻用起来很奇怪，因为商户不是在付钱，而是在收款；但一旦我收到了款，我该把它放在哪里呢？尤其是如果因为 PCI 等原因，我要一遍又一遍地向这个客户收费。我不想把写着你那个……那个秘密的三位数代码的纸片存起来——当然它根本不是什么秘密，因为它就在你卡的背面——但我需要它来处理交易。我不想把你的 16 位凭证存起来，就这么一直写在纸片上，比如放在我最初的……呃，收银机里。Guest: they were yet another but there were like there are consumer wallets and then there are merchant because like the interesting thing is that I I kind of think of VGS as a merchant wallet to an extent I mean like it's it's a strange metaphor to use because a merchant isn't paying for things a merchant is receiving payments but like once I receive the payment like where where do I put it especially if I'm billing this customer again and again and again and again for PCI reasons and whatnot I don't want to store scraps of paper with like your se that that secret three-digit code that of course is not secret because it's on the back of your card, but I need it to process it. I don't want to store your 16digit, you know, credential and just keep it in scraps of paper and like my my my uh original um cash register.

就像我需要有个东西替我接收它。在消费者这一端，我不想记得消费者钱包最初是干什么用的：凌晨两点，我想给妻子买花，钱包却在楼下——我都不知道钱包在哪儿。我现在就想去 1-800-Flowers 付款。如果我只要输入 PayPal 凭据，它们就能作为一个封装层，链接到我非托管钱包里的各种凭据。这就是当时的用途。但我觉得所有智能体商务有意思的地方在于，它其实也是同一回事。Like I need something to go receive that for me. On the consumer side, it's like I don't want to remember like what was the original purpose of a consumer wallet? It's that it's 2:00 in the morning. I want to buy flowers for my wife. My wallet's downstairs. like I don't know where my wallet is. I want to go pay on 1800 Flowers right now. And if I just enter my PayPal credentials, they were a rapper and link to all of my my kind of all the credentials in my dead cow wallet. Like that that was the purpose back then. But what I find interesting with all of aentic commerce is it's kind of the same thing.

主持人：就像，你知道，你……现在还是凌晨两点。你知道，你还是想给妻子买花，可能是因为你做了什么不好的事，或者是母亲节什么的。Host: It's like, you know, you're you're it's still 2 o'clock in the morning. You know, you you still want to buy flowers for for your wife or something bad that you did or, you know, Mother's Day or whatever.

客人：有件好事，亚历克斯。Guest: Something good, Alex.

主持人：来点好事，对吧？你知道，买花什么时候都不嫌晚。我是说，记得我们有 1800 Flowers 的赞助，所以记得到那里买。嗯，所以你想去买东西，但你的智能体没有访问权限。问题还是一样，对吧？智能体可能会说：“嘿，Terry，你的信用卡号是多少？”这就更费事、更麻烦了。相比之下，就像 15 年前你手动办事时，把所有银行卡、所有银行账户都授权给 PayPal 一样，让它直接访问，就能减少操作上的摩擦。Host: Something good, right? you know, always always time to buy flowers. I mean, make sure we're sponsored by 1800 Flowers, so make sure to buy there. Um, so you want to go buy and your agent doesn't have access. Like it it's the same problem, right? It's like the agent could say, "Hey, Terry, where's your credit card number?" And that's more work and more friction versus it has access to it in the same way that you just gave access to all of your cards, all of your bank accounts to PayPal to reduce the friction when you were doing things manually 15 years ago.

嘉宾：是的。你看，我觉得“钱包”这个词有点被用滥了。它其实有几种不同的形态。一种是实体皮革钱包的数字版本，它只是存储支付凭证。当你去——当你去商家那里时，就把这个凭证交给商家，对吧？Apple Pay 大概就是这么做的，对吧？当我用 Apple Pay 购物时，或者说，当我在商店里用 Apple Pay 购物时，Apple 实际上是把我的 Capital One Visa 卡以令牌化的形式放进钱包里，再交给商家。商家收到这个凭证后，会决定通过 Chase、Adin、Stripe 还是 Brainree 来处理交易。还有一种钱包会直接替你处理交易。所以……Guest: Yeah. And look, I think the word wallet is is a bit overused. There's sort of different versions of it. One is the the digital version of your of your dead cow wallet, which is that it just stores the payment credential. And when it go to when you go to a merchant, you hand that credential to the merchant. All right? That's kind of what Apple Pay does, right? when when I shop at Apple Pay or so when I shop at a store with Apple Pay, Apple is effectively giving my Capital One Visa card effectively tokenized in the wallet to the merchant. The merchant receives this credential and it decides whether it processes it through Chase or Adin or Stripe or Brainree. Then you have wallets that actually take care of the transaction for you. So

Stripe：智能体商务领域的 AOLStripe as the AOL of agentic commerce

想想 Shop Pay、Link 或 PayPal，钱包实际上是在与我进行交易，由我收取款项，再把钱转给商家。而智能体商务正在发生的情况是，我们似乎正在看到两者的某种融合。这个生态系统还很新，对我来说，它确实让人联想到互联网早期的日子。对于那些经历过 AOL 时代的人来说，Stripe 在很多方面就像是智能体商务领域的 AOL。我这么说是出于赞赏，因为他们已经摸索出如何让智能体商务顺畅运作，而且采用的是一种非常典型的“围墙花园”模式。举几个例子：如果我使用 Stripe Link，那么 Link 只在一百万家商户那里可用。think about shop pay or link or PayPal where the wallet is in fact transacting with me collecting the money from me and remitting that back to the merchant. And what's happening with Agent Gente commerce is we're sort of getting this this the sort of you know blend of the two and it's such a new ecosystem that it actually has parallels for me back to the early days of the internet. And uh for those people who were around in the sort of AOL era, Stripe in many ways is like the AOL of Agentic Commerce. Um, and I I mean that as a as a compliment in the sense that they've figured out how to make agentic commerce just work in a way that's a very kind of, you know, uh, sort of, you know, world garden approach. So, you know, a few examples here would be um, if I use stripe link, links only available at a million merchants.

所以，如果我想要的商品恰好能在那上百万家商户中的某一家买到，那当然很好；但很多时候，商品是在没有接入 Stripe Link 的地方出售的。举个很好的例子，大概两周前，我在家里办了个活动。我想买一些户外灯，于是让 Instinct 帮我找这些灯，最后我在沃尔玛找到了，完全说得通，沃尔玛的库存非常丰富。然后，智能代理把商品加进了购物车；到了付款的时候，Link 并没有接入沃尔玛。Link 里有我的银行卡，但它不能直接把我的卡信息交给智能代理，再交给沃尔玛。所以，Stripe 做了一件相当有意思的事。他们代我买了那些吊灯。他们实际上发了一张自己的……呃，这就像是一张 Visa 虚拟卡，只能使用一次。So, it's great if in fact the item that I want is available at one of those million merchants, but very often it's available at some place where there isn't a Stripe link connection. So, a good example was I think two weeks ago I had this event at my house. I wanted to buy some outdoor lights and I asked Instinct to go and help me find these lights and I found the lights at Walmart which makes a ton of sense. Walmart has lots of inventory. And the agent went loaded the cart and when it came time to pay, link didn't have a connection to Walmart. It link has my card, but it can't just give my card over to the agent and over to Walmart. So, Stripe did something pretty interesting. They purchased the chandeliers on my behalf. They issued their own uh actually this is like a a Visa virtual card, one time use card.

完成购买后，他们又向我收取了一笔费用，Terry，算作第二笔交易。这有点像现在 DoorDash 的运作方式。你知道，你在 DoorDash 上花一百美元，然后外卖员就去餐厅付款。嗯，不过就这笔沃尔玛交易而言，这正是它有点像 AOL 的地方：它运行得非常好。比如，东西确实送到了，交易也成功完成了，收取的金额也没错。但如果吊灯出了问题，我通常会打电话给我的银行 Capital One，说：“嘿，我在沃尔玛有这么一笔交易，对吧？”made the purchase and then they charged me Terry as at at a second transaction. This is a little bit how like Door Dash works today. You know, you like spend a hundred bucks at Door Dash and then the Dasher goes and and and pays the restaurant. Um, but in the case of this Walmart transaction, this is the point about it sort of being the AOL, it worked just great. Like I actually like the the the item showed up, the transaction went through, I was charged the right amount. But if there's a problem with the chandelier, typically I call up my bank, Capital One, and I say, "Hey, I had this transaction with Walmart, right?

主持人：有件事，你知道，出了问题。”然后他们说：“嗯，我们这里看不到沃尔玛的交易记录。”Host: Something, you know, went wrong." And they say, "Well, we don't see a Walmart transaction here.

客人：我们看到一条条纹。Guest: We see a stripe.

主持人：我们只看到一笔 Stripe 交易。”事实上，你会觉得这事特别特别好笑。我认识一个人，呃，在测试阶段的时候，呃，在他们的 AMX 卡上完整地走了一遍这个流程，打电话给 AMX 说：“嘿，我，你知道，这笔和商家的交易没成功，但 AMX 只看到了 Stripe。”于是他们给了他一个电话号码，让他打给这个 Link 商家。那个人打过去后，电话直接转到了 Stripe 一位工程师的手机上，因为 Stripe 还没准备好处理拒付，你知道，就某种……Host: We just see a stripe transaction." And in fact, you will find this pretty pretty funny. I know someone who uh in the sort of testing phase uh did this exact flow on their on their AMX card called up AMX and said, "Hey, I I you know, this transaction with the merchant didn't go through, but Amx only saw Stripe." So, they gave them a phone number to call whoever this link merchant is. the person called them, it went straight to the cell phone of a Stripe engineer because Stripe's not set up to run a chargeback, you know, sort of

嘉宾：嗯，这就是 Visa 和 Mastercard 地位如此稳固的主要原因之一，因为它们中介了所有交易、制定规则，而且拒付机制非常重要。是的。Guest: Well, this is the main like one of the reasons why Visa and Mastercard have such impregnable positions is because they intermediate everything and they set the rules and chargebacks are very important. Yeah.

主持人：对。比如说，如果我付钱买了东西呢？这是一种信任机制。我付钱让你提供某样东西，比如灯具。你却没把灯具送来。我就会想，糟了，我现在没钱了，怎么办？不，不，不。其实是有一套规则的，我可以按照这些规则提出投诉。Host: Right. Like what if I I paid for something? It's a trust mechanism. I pay you for something. I pay you for lights. You don't deliver the lights. Like, oh shoot, I don't have money anymore. What do I do? No, no, no. You actually have rules by which I can kind of lodge a complaint

嘉宾：然后会有一个中央中介机构，嗯，你知道的，帮助裁定这些投诉，而且裁定方式相对公平，双方都能接受。我是说，这就是问题的一部分。比如说，这就是为什么加密货币很酷，但它有点像一种不记名支付工具。我用加密货币付给你，这笔钱就再也要不回来了。这既可能是缺点，也可能是优点。但拿你说的灯来说，如果灯坏了怎么办？你会希望 Visa 和 Mastercard 介入。实际上，这对商家也非常有用，因为现在我更愿意向商家购买商品，因为我知道，如果他们交付的产品确实不能正常使用，我可以把钱要回来。Guest: and then there's a central intermediary that helps um you know adjudicate those complaints in a way that is you know more more or less fair that both parties agree on. I mean it's part of the problem like this is why crypto cool but like it's kind it's a bearer instrument. I pay you with crypto. I'm never getting that back. Which again can be a bug or a feature but for your lights example like what if the lights don't work? you want to have Visa and Mastercard in the middle. That's that's high high utility actually even for the merchant because now I am I'm much more willing to buy with the merchant knowing that if they don't actually deliver a product that works I can get my money back.

主持人：是的。Host: Yeah.

嘉宾：所以这种信任机制非常重要，但话说回来，如果你、如果你加入所有这些有意思又非常巧妙的工程步骤，它就只是……Guest: So that trust mechanism is very important but again if you if you add all these kind of um interesting and very clever engineering steps it just

全新的智能体令牌标准The new agentic token standard

这个这个这个目的，效果没那么好。the the the purpose it doesn't work as well.

主持人：是的。事实上，我觉得这就是从 AOL 生态系统走向开放标准生态系统的正确方向。银行卡组织实际上推出了一种新型标准，叫作 Agentic tokens。它能让像 Stripe Link、Shopee 或 PayPal 这样的钱包安全地把凭证交给代理，然后代理再把凭证交给商家。这样一来，沃尔玛那笔交易发生时，用的就是我的卡。事实上，还有一件事可以算是我买完吊灯后沃尔玛交易的一个补充：一切都很顺利。我收到沃尔玛发来的邮件，说：“嗨，Terry，你支付了配送费。”金额好像是 6.99 美元。何不注册 Walmart Plus 呢？我们还提供一项优惠：如果你今天注册，我们会把配送费抵扣到你的 Walmart Plus 订阅费中。Host: Yeah. So in fact this is like I think the right sort of direction of travel from the AOL ecosystem to the open standards ecosystem. The card networks have actually come out with a new type of standard. They're called Agentic tokens that will allow a wallet like a Stripe link or a Shopee or a PayPal to hand over a credential to the agent in a safe way and then have the agent hand it to the merchant in such a way that when that Walmart transaction occurred, it's my card. In fact, like one sort of, you know, um addendum to the Walmart transaction after I bought the chandelier, everything was fine. I got an email from Walmart to say, "Hey, Terry, you paid for delivery." It was like $6.99. Why don't you sign up to Walmart Plus and here's an offer. If you sign up today, we will credit the delivery toward your Walmart Plus subscription.

所以我说：“太好了。”我按下按钮，当然，交易失败了，因为他们持有的是 Stripe 的一次性使用卡。你知道，你提到了规则和规范。电子商务的一项规范是，沃尔玛花很多钱来争取我成为顾客，然后他们有权尝试与我建立关系、向我追加销售和交叉销售。而在这个案例中，因为我们用的是某种 AOL 版本，他们没法轻松地让我订阅所有服务——你知道的，就是这个新服务。按照新的 Agentic 标准，应该这样处理：如果某个钱包与商家没有合作关系，但里面存有我的卡——我的 Capital One Visa 卡——那张卡就应该由代理进行令牌化。这里有一整套流程，代理会说：“我即将进行一笔交易。So, I said, "Great." I hit the button and of course the transaction failed because the card that they had was the Stripe one time use card. And part of the, you know, you mentioned like rules and norms. Part of the norms of e-commerce is that Walmart spends a lot of money to get me as a customer and then they have the right to try to have a relationship with me, upsell me, cross-ell me. And in this case, because we were using the sort of AOL version, they weren't able to easily uh allow me to subscribe to all, you know, to to this to this new service. With the new Agentic standards, what should happen is if any of the wallets don't have a relationship with the merchant, but they have my card on file, my Capital One uh Visa card, that should be uh um tokenized with the agent. There's a whole process by which the agent says, "I'm about to make a transaction.

“我是经过验证的代理。我打算最多花100美元。”嗯，代币不过是一个新的16位数字，对吧？I'm a verified agent. I'm going to spend no more than $100." That um the token is nothing more than a new 16-digit number. Right?

嘉宾：我们会安全地把它交给代理。代理再把它交给沃尔玛，然后由沃尔玛执行交易，但扣款的是我的卡，这样就能保留进行后续交易的能力，也保留了所有关于拒付的规则。所以，你知道，三个月前，这方面还是零，根本不存在。VGS 远远领先于其他机构，是这类代理式代币最大的提供方。我们为代理提供代币，为钱包提供代币，也为一些商家提供代币。你知道，三个月前这还是零。现在我们每周会处理几百万个这样的代币。所以我预计，随着我们从封闭式生态转向某种开放标准，代理商务就会沿着这条路径发展。Guest: We give that safely to the agent. Agent gives it to Walmart and then Walmart runs the transaction, but it's my card that is being charged and that preserves this ability to have a follow- on transaction. It preserves all of the rules around chargebacks. And so, you know, 3 months ago, this was at zero. It did not exist. VGS is by far the largest uh provisioner of these agentic tokens. We do it for the for the agents. We do it for the wallets. We do it for some of the merchants and this was, you know, zero three months ago. Now we're doing a few million of these tokens per week. So I expect that as we make this transition from the from the walled garden to the sort of open standards, this will be the way that that Agent Commerce evolves.

主持人：是的，我的意思是，这也是为什么它会显得……我是说，这么长时间以来——我这是在说好话——VGS 的业务非常无聊。为什么无聊？因为我们有一个保险库。我是说，任何做保管库业务的人，干的都不是什么令人兴奋的业务。你的工作就是别让事情变得刺激，要确保安全可靠。东西进保险库，偶尔再从保险库里出来，对吧？这不是一扇单向门。因为我一直是这么看待 VGS 的：嗯，你会存储这些凭证。比如，你会收到这些 15 位的 AMX 卡号，或者 16 位的 Visa、Mastercard、Discover 卡号，把它们存起来，然后返回一个令牌。这个不是加密货币代币，只是给你一个可以使用的东西。然后，还可以对这些凭证执行一些操作，Host: Yeah, I mean it's it's one of the reasons why this like kind of long I I mean this as a positive, but like VGS has a very boring business of why is it boring? Because we have a vault. I mean, anybody who's in a vaulting business is kind it's not a it's not an exciting business. Like your job is to be not exciting and be safe and be secure and it's like things go in the vault and then every now and then things go out of the vault, right? It's not like a one-way door because this the way that I always thought about VGS is um there are these credentials that you store. So it's like you get these 15digit AMX numbers or 16digit, you know, Visa, Mastercard Discover numbers, you store them, you give back like a, you know, a token. This is not a crypto token. This is just like here here's something that you can use and then there are verbs that can be performed on those credentials,

主持人：对吧？Host: right?

嘉宾：所以，假设我是——你知道——一家大型汉堡连锁店之类的，呃，我们不知道具体是哪家，但比如说你们和一家大型汉堡连锁店合作，对吧？比如说，呃，我有一个面向消费者的应用，有几千万用户。我知道，每当用户说“我想买个汉堡”，VGS 就会发挥关键作用。这工作很无聊，但就是代为获取并扣款，对吧？所以，我获取这项凭证，是为了把它交给支付处理商，然后说：“现在向特里收取 9 美元”，但之后我再也不必接触这项凭证了。你知道，这真的是个非常非常无聊的业务。但你们已经做到……我是说，你觉得你们见过、接触过或存储过多少比例的银行卡？大概是美国银行卡的 80% 吧？Guest: So if I am, you know, a big burger chain or something hypothetically, uh we don't know which one, but like you work with a big burger chain, right? Like uh I I I I have a consumer app that has, you know, tens of millions of users. I know that whenever that user says, I want to buy a hamburger, like VGS plays a key role. It's a very boring role, but I retrieve and charge, right? So, I retrieve it with the purpose of sending that to a payment processor and saying, "Charge Terry $9 right now, but I never have to touch that credential again." You know, ve very, very boring business. But you've gotten to I mean, what what percentage of cards do you think you've seen or touch or store? It's probably what is it 80% of cards in America?

主持人：我是说，我们有大约 100 亿条凭证。嗯，凭证数量非常多。嗯，我觉得你提到了一个特别有意思的点：保险库正在从单人模式转向多人模式，这让它们的价值大大提升。举个例子，先不谈智能代理，商户使用多个处理商这一事实意味着，VGS 的保险库实际上就是这些处理商各自的保险库，对吧？因为存储在那个保险库里的网络令牌现在必须发送给 Chase、Stripe、Adion、Brainree、Razer Pay，Host: I mean, we have like 10 billion credentials. Um, it's a lot of credentials. Um, I I think you you're touching on something really interesting, which is vaults are going from single player to multiplayer, and that makes them a lot more valuable. So, for example, put aside agents, the fact that merchants have multiple processors means that the vault at VGS is effectively the the vault for each of those processors, right? because the the the network tokens stored in that vault now have to be sent to Chase, Stripe, Adion, Brainree, Razer Pay,

主持人：对吗？Host: right?

嘉宾：呃，这是多个智能体参与的多玩家模式。呃，如果你有一个保险库，假设你是一个大型的、呃，前沿模型。这里有个很好的例子。你的大型前沿模型会轮换卡片，以便收取订阅费用。但现在，智能体想要使用同一笔交易……同一个凭证来付款。过去，保险库是单人模式的。它过去只是为了确保你能支付订阅费用。但现在，根据这些开放标准，你实际上可以把那个凭证交给智能体。现在它是多玩家模式了，Guest: Uh that's multiplayer with agents. Uh if you have a vault, let's assume you're like a large, you know, frontier model. Here's a good example. Your large frontier model, you're revolting cards in order to charge for your subscription. But now the agent wants to use that same transa that same credential to make a payment. And so the vault used to be single player. It used to be just to make sure that you could pay for the subscription. But now you can effectively give that credential according to these open standards to the agent. It's now multiplayer,

主持人：对吗？Host: right?

嘉宾：所以我觉得，你知道，任何从单人使用转向多人协作的业务，本质上都会变得更有趣。我的意思是，哪怕是 1Password，对吧？它以前就是一个单人使用的密码库。Guest: And so I think you know any business that is going from single player to multiplayer inherently becomes more interesting. I mean even one password, right? like it's a used to be a single player vault

主持人：我可能会在一些事情上和妻子共享我的登录凭据，但现在这就变成多人参与了，因为我想让多个不同的参与方都能访问它。Host: and maybe I share my credentials with my wife on a few things, but now it's multiplayer cuz I'm trying to give it access to multiple different parties.

嘉宾：嗯，这件事确实很复杂，要追溯到 Visa 和 Mastercard 的规则和流程。Guest: Well, this is a really complicated thing going back to like the rules and procedures of what Visa and Mastercard

每笔交易背后的三项检查The three checks behind every transaction

已经做过了，通常我只需要……一笔交易大致有三个步骤。我觉得第一步是：这个身份是真的吗？对吧？一般来说，比如说，这是不是一个真实的卡号？have done, which is normally I just have to there there are almost like three steps to a transaction. I kind of think of number one is is this identity real, right? Like in general, like is this a real card number?

主持人：对吧？这很重要。不过等等，我可以有一个真实的卡号，而你是个小偷。这个卡号仍然是真的。所以，第二步大概是：我验证之后——其实验证卡号有两种方式。一种是，嗯，有个循环校验，对吧？你把数字加起来……对，是校验和，对吧？嗯，不过这是信用卡号的模 10 校验。它有效吗？但这并不意味着它是一张真实的卡，只是说它属于有效卡号的范围。不过我可以去问银行：这张卡是真的吗？这是第一步。第二步是，和我打交道的人是不是这张卡的合法持卡人？比如说，如果你 25 年前去珠宝店，想买一件价值 1.5 万美元的东西，他们会拿到你的信用卡号，也会拿到你的信用卡——那张塑料卡片——但他们还会做两件事。Host: Right? That's important. But wait a minute, I can have a real card number and you're a thief. It's still a real card number. So, kind of step two is once I validate because there actually there are two ways of validating a card number. There's one there is a um there's like a uh cyclicality check, right? You kind of add up the Yeah, it's check some, right? Um but it's this mod 10 check of the credit card number. Is it valid? But that doesn't mean it's a real card, but it means that it's like a valid it's in the valid universe of cards. But I can go check with the bank. Is this an actual card? That's step one. Step two is, is the person that I'm interacting with the valid owner of this card? So, like if you if you went to a jewelry store 25 years ago and you wanted to buy something for $15,000, they'll take the credit card number, they'll take your credit card, your piece of plastic, but they'll do two things as well.

记住，以前你得在卡的背面签名。我记得我见过的第一张彻底取消这项要求的卡就是 Apple 卡。所以说到 Apple 卡，虽然他们希望你用 Apple Pay，但如果你拿到实体的 Apple 金属卡，背面根本没有地方可以签名。完全没有。不过他们也会问：“我能看看你的身份证吗？”我记得有一次我买了——嗯，买了件很贵的东西。嗯，可能是给我妻子买的珠宝，我有时也会给她买花。这大概是 25 年前的事了。他们想看我的身份证，还核对了签名。为什么？因为他们知道这张卡是有效的，但他们想确认我确实是这张卡的持有人。第三点嘛，你可能只有在拉斯维加斯才会遇到——他们会问，你现在神志清醒、具备做这笔交易的能力吗？Remember, it used to be a you used to have to sign the signature of the back of the card. Like I thought the first card that I ever saw that just got rid of that alto together was Apple. So the Apple card, I mean, even though they want you to use Apple Pay, if you get the physical Apple metal card, there's no place to sign on the back. None. But they would also say, "Can I see your ID?" Like, I remember I bought uh I bought something very expensive one time. Uh might have been jewelry for my wife that I sometimes buy flowers for as well. This was probably 25 years ago. And they wanted to see my ID. They checked the signature. Why? Because they knew that the card was valid, but they want to make sure that I am the actual owner of the card. And then number three, and you probably only see this in Vegas, um, but it's like, are you of sound mind to make this transaction?

所以，比如说，如果你去拉斯维加斯的赌场，经过检查：第一，卡是有效的。第二，你拿出身份证和签名，一切完全吻合。但还有第三步：如果你已经喝了15杯，连话都说不清楚，他们很可能不会让你付款，对吧？这有点像旧世界的情况。如果把这个比喻带到新世界，那就是：卡有效吗？是的。这个人是否……So like if if you went to a to a casino in Vegas and you pass, you know, number one, card's valid. Number two, it's like, yep, here's your ID, here's your signature, it matches entirely. But there's step three, it's like if you've had 15 drinks and you can't even speak properly, they're probably going to not let you pay, right? So this was kind of like the old world. And if you bring that metaphor to the new world, well, it's like, well, is the card valid? Yeah. Does the person

主持人：智能体？Host: agent?

嘉宾：嗯，但这有点棘手，对吧？就好像这张卡会有效一样。就像是那个部分解决了问题。Guest: Well, but this is tricky, right? It's like the card is going to be valid. Like that that part solved problem.

主持人：但第二部分，意思是什么呢，对吧？比如说，我正在互动的这个人，是我的对话者吗？嗯，我很喜欢这个词。正在和我互动的这个人，是这张卡的合法持卡人吗？在互联网上，这一直是个很难解决的问题，因为我没法……比如说，签名图片，这到底是什么意思？你有一个 IP 地址，也许我以前见过你，也核验过你的登录信息，但现在我有了一个代理。第三部分从责任归属的角度来看也相当重要，因为你确实会在 X 之类的平台上看到一些这样的轶事：有人看到扣款，第一反应就是：“你花了 900 美元？你这笨蛋！”那么，拒付到底该由谁来承担？所以，我的意思是，这正是这些开放标准要解决的问题。Host: But the second part, it's like what does that mean, right? Like is the person that I am interacting with, is my interlocutor? Um, I love that word. Is is is the person that I'm interacting with, are they the valid owner of this card? It was always a hard problem to figure out on the internet because I can't like signature picture like what does that mean? You're an IP address and maybe I've seen you before and I've checked your login, but now I have an agent. And then that part three is pretty important as well from a liability perspective because you do see these anecdotes on on X and whatnot of people that are on instinct. They're like, "What do you mean you spent $900, you idiot?" And like who where does the chargeback come from? So, so I mean this is exactly what these open standards are are are solving for.

那么，我们举个例子，假设我给我的智能代理下达指令。事实上，这是一个真实案例。我当时在为一次旅行找酒店，我们要去参加我女儿的体操比赛。我说：“去圣迭戈找一家酒店，预算别超过 500 美元。”那么，智能代理获得配置后，首先要回答的问题——也就是你问的那个问题——是：“这是一张真实的卡吗？”这是一个需要解决的问题。第二个问题是：“给智能代理的请求是否有效？”而在各支付网络中，这套机制的运作方式是：智能代理实际上必须在 Visa、Mastercard 或 AMX 注册。因此，这里有一整套机制。So, let's let's take an example where I instruct my agent. In fact, this is a re real example. I was looking for a hotel uh for a trip we're making for my daughter's gymnastics tournament and I said go and find um a hotel uh in San Diego and and don't spend more than you know $500. So the first question when that when that agent is provisioned is to your question is like is this a real card? That's a solve problem. The second one is is the request for the agent a valid request and the way that this works with the networks is that agent actually has to be registered with Visa or Mastercard or AMX. And so there's a whole sort of mechanism there.

主持人：第三个问题是，这个代理的心智是否健全？也就是说，它答对了吗？Host: The third question is like is the agent of sound mind like did it get it right?

嘉宾：对。Guest: Right.

主持人：它当时是不是喝醉了？你知道，确切地说。它有没有产生幻觉？嗯，所以，嗯，我觉得这部分我们还没有完全弄明白，因为如果代理犯了错，而卡组织一切都做对了，他们也验证了这是你的代理和你的指令。事实上，这些代理新标准的运作方式之一，就是你要给它提供上下文。你会说：“我要买这个——这是一笔金额为……的酒店预订。”我很难知道你是否把实际日期填对了。如果这里出了错，那么争议解决机制就还有待明确。不过我想我们会逐步解决这个问题，而且代理可能也得承担一些责任。Host: And was it drunk? you know, exactly. Did it hallucinate? Um, and so, um, that part I don't think we fully understand yet because if there's a mistake that the agent makes and the the cart network did everything right. They validated that this is your agent and your instruction. In fact, part of the way these agent these these new standards work is you give it context. You say, "I'm buying a this is a hotel reservation at this amount. It's hard for me to know the if you got the if you got the actual dates right. If there's an error there then that dispute mechanism is sort of unresolved. But I think we will we will get to that point and probably the agents will have to take on some responsibility.

嘉宾：嗯，这是关于委托权限的概念。Guest: Well, it's this idea of delegated authority.

主持人：是的。Host: Yeah.

嘉宾：嗯，不过你怎么……你觉得谁该承担责任？这会带来什么变化？我的意思是，可能会出现这样的情况：两个代理在争取你的生意，比如说：“嘿，Terry，请用我吧。我是 Muse。”或者“请用我吧。我是 Instinct。”那我能给你提供什么增值服务呢？我会承担责任，因为如果商家够聪明，他们不会说：“我才不在乎你订错了酒店房间，或者你做了什么。”他们会说：“是你告诉我、把卡给了我，你把授权委托给了 AI 代理、你的私人助理、你的妻子，或者其他什么人。我不在乎。”我需要知道，如果我收款提供某样东西，事后不能有任何借口。我的意思是，这就叫——懂这个术语的人都知道——友好欺诈。曾几何时，有这样一个概念：我可以买某样东西。Guest: Um but it's how do you how do you like who is liable? How does this change? I mean it might be something where if two agents are competing for your business like hey Terry please use me. I'm Muse or please use me. I'm Instinct. What is one of the value ads that I'm going to give you? I will take on because if if the merchants are smart, they're not going to be like I don't give a crap that like you got the wrong hotel room or you did this. It's like you told you gave your card, you delegated authority to either an AI agent or your human assistant or your wife or whatever. Like I don't care. I need to know if I'm accepting payments for something that there's no excuse at the end. I mean, this was called for uh for for those that know this term friendly fraud. Once upon a time, there's this concept of I can buy something.

我们以前在试用期薪酬中见过这种情况。We used to see this at trial pay.

主持人：好的。Host: All right.

嘉宾：我在虚拟宝石上花了 1 万美元。我和妻子共用……我其实没干过这事。先说明一下，不过就假设我干了吧。我在某个蠢游戏的虚拟宝石上花了 1 万美元。月底信用卡账单来了。我就说：“亲爱的，我从来没在那个上面花过 1 万美元，不是我。我不知道。”就像是，你拒绝这笔交易，不是因为你没得到所提供的服务，而是因为这服务糟糕得让人尴尬。Guest: I spent $10,000 on virtual gems. My wife and I share the I didn't actually do this. Just for disclosure, but let's just say I did. I spent $10,000 on virtual gems for some stupid game. The credit card bill comes due at the end of the month. I'm like, "Honey, I never spent $10,000 on that wasn't me. I don't know." like and you you refuse the transaction not because you didn't get the service that was offered but because it's so embarrassingly terrible.

主持人：而商家不得不一直处理这种情况。Host: And merchants had to deal with this all the time.

客人：是的。Guest: Yeah.

主持人：而在很多情况下，银行会说：“嗯，如果这是一笔 10 美元的交易，根本不值得为此争执。我们每次都会把钱退给消费者。”这就造成了道德风险。不过，委托权限在这里就变得相当棘手了。我的意思是，也许……Host: And in many cases like the the the banks would say, "Well, if it's a $10 transaction, it's not even worth fighting it. We'll just give it to the consumer every time." Which created moral hazard. But delegated authority gets really tricky here. I mean, maybe

亚马逊为何封禁 MuseWhy Amazon blocked Muse

如果我可以问个不同的问题，因为这可能才是更重要的问题。嗯，你看到亚马逊最近封禁了 Muse，这背后有很多原因。主要是因为亚马逊是一家广告公司，他们希望你和你的眼球都去他们的网站。他们不想要你的智能体，因为智能体没有眼球，你没法靠智能体的眼球赚钱。但我觉得，你要么可以对智能体商务抱有敌意，要么可以非常欢迎智能体商务。我其实不认为——我觉得，说任何抱有敌意的人都是卢德分子、迟早会被淘汰，这种说法过于简单化了。比如，亚马逊就有理由抱有敌意——确实是出于经济上的原因，因为对他们来说，做广告比单纯卖东西赚钱多得多。if I can ask a different question because this is probably the more important one. Um, you saw that Amazon recently blocked Muse and there are many reasons for this. It's mainly that Amazon is an advertising company and they want you and your eyeballs going to their website. They don't want your agent because the agent, you can't monetize an agent's eyeballs because the agent doesn't have eyeballs. But I kind of think of it as you can either be antagonistic to agentic commerce or you can be highly receptive to agentic commerce. And I don't actually think I think it's an oversimplification to say anybody who's antagonistic is is a lighteyed and they're gone. It's like well Amazon has a reason like a real financial reason to be antagonistic because advertising is is so much more lucrative for them than just selling things.

就像价值最高的偏向，就是他们吸引你的眼球，然后把眼球卖出去。但我想，你怎么看这种情况会如何发展？嗯，因为成为一种赋能技术，让商家愿意接受 AI 商务，这非常非常非常有价值。而且顺便说一句，同时帮助那些不太友好的商家过滤掉代理式商务也很有价值，因为再说一次，他们有时候确实有理由这么做。但如果我能做到让 ChatGPT 之类的服务说“对，你应该在这里买”，而且把这件事弄得尽可能简单，那就不言而喻了：我可能会比那些插入 15 个验证码、还说“要继续，请先完成这些步骤”的人获得多得多的交易；然后 Muse 就会说：“嘿，别睡午觉了，你得起来做完这 15 件事。”Like the highest value skew is when they they get your eyeballs and they sell the eyeballs. But I guess how do you think about this this kind of playing out? Um because it feels like being enabling technology for merchants to be receptive to AI commerce is highly highly highly valuable. And but by the way at the same time helping the antagonistics ones filter out the agent commerce is also highly valuable because again sometimes they have a reason to do that. But if I can make it so that you know chat GPT services like yeah you should buy here and I make that as simple as possible. It just it goes without saying like I'm probably going to get a lot more transactions than somebody that inserts 15 captures and says in order to proceed with this and then Muse is going to say hey interrupt your your nap you got to go do these 15 things.

不不不，你会选那个对 AI 商务持开放态度的。是的，我的意思是，我觉得这是 Agent 和 Commerce 领域里最有趣、值得关注的前沿之一，而且我认为我们会看到多种不同的模式。亚马逊就是其中一家，我觉得它有很多理由要阻止智能体，正如你所说，它们实际上是在做广告生意。还有沃尔玛，目前的情况也非常相似，对吧？它还没有采取那一步。事实上，你甚至可以说，如果你是全球最大的零售商之一，而且拥有最好的最后一公里配送能力，那么这一切对你来说都是好事。然后还有一系列隶属于 Shopify 生态的商家，其中有很多小企业；对它们来说，这很可能会成为一个全新的、至关重要的渠道。所以，也许亚马逊那边是出于恐惧，沃尔玛那边是出于贪婪，而中小企业那边则是别无选择；这些参与者，或者说这些商家，都会尝试摸索该如何应对智能体。No no no you're going to go with the one that is receptive to AI commerce. Yeah, I mean I think this is one of the most fun um uh sort of fronts to to watch in in Agent and Commerce and I think we're going to get multiple different versions of this. We have Amazon which I think has many reasons to to to block agents as you said they're effectively you know in the advertising business. You have Walmart which is very sort of similar right now hasn't you know hasn't taken that step and in fact you might argue that if you are one of the largest retailers on earth with the best last mile delivery that this is all good for you and then you have the series of merchants that are sort of under the Shopify umbrella which are a lot of small businesses that really this is probably a new like vital channel so maybe there's like fear on the Amazon side maybe there's greed on the Walmart side and maybe there's like you know no choice on uh on the SMB side and each of these actors or each of these merchants are going to experiment with with how they deal with agents.

我觉得这让我稍微想起了开放银行是如何推出的——我知道我们对此的看法有些不同。问题是：作为亚马逊客户，我有没有权利把我的登录权限委托给一个代理？亚马逊有没有权利拒绝？这就是 Plaid、Chase 和各家银行之间发生的事。最后通常的结果是，双方经过漫长的协商达成和解，像 Chase 这样的银行会说：“嘿，你可以访问这些信息，你确实有权获取这些信息，但只能通过我的 API，而我的 API 会限制我提供给你的信息。”他们会把银行账户令牌化。I think this reminds me a little bit I know we sort of have a different view on this of how open banking you know was rolled out which is do I have the right as an Amazon customer to delegate my login to an agent and does Amazon have the right to say no? This is what happened with Plaid and you know Chase and and the banks and in the end what tended to happen was there was this like long negotiated settlement where the likes of Chase said hey you can access you you you do have the right to this information but only on my APIs and my APIs limit what information I give you. They tokenize the bank accounts

嘉宾：而且我可能会收很多钱。Guest: and I might charge a lot

主持人：我可能还会因此收你一些钱。所以，实际上我觉得有意思的问题是，我认为我们可能有很多机会，或者说有很多商家会欢迎代理。也可能有些商家有自己的代理。嗯，事实上，我去百思买想买一台平板电视时，情况就是这样。我想那里会有一位销售人员，他有自己的目的，会说：“我给你介绍几款平板电视吧。”他们的工作是帮我，但他们也要拿佣金，对吧？所以，在 Chase 和开放银行的案例中，更多涉及的是安全和控制。而在亚马逊的案例中，情况可能是：我是一个有主张的 API。我会根据很多很多关于你的数据点，对你应该买什么有自己的看法，Alex。Host: and I might charge you some money for it. So actually I think the interesting question is I think we may have plenty of opportunities or or plenty of merchants who just welcome agents. We may also have merchants who have their own agents. Uh in fact this is what happens if I go to a Best Buy and I want to buy a flat screen TV. I assume there'll be a salesperson there with an agenda and he or she will say let me show you some flat screen TVs. Now their job is to help me but their job is also to get a commission. Right? So we might have in in the case of Chase and open banking it was much more a case of like security and control. In the case of Amazon it might be I am an opinionated API. I have an opinion on what you should buy Alex based on many many different sort of you know data points about you.

然后我的经纪人可能会对我想要什么有自己的看法。这会是一场有趣的交锋，或者说是一场沟通。最后，我认为……And then my agent may have an opinion about what I want. And so that's going to be a fascinating battle or or communication. And in the end, I think

被过度吹捧 vs 被低估Over-hyped vs under-hyped

消费者可能会受益，但我们不知道未来会是什么样子。consumers probably win, but we don't know what that's going to look like going forward,

嘉宾：对吧？嗯，也许就这个而言，你觉得正在发生的一切里，哪些被过度炒作，哪些又被低估了？我的意思是，一般来说，我的经验法则是，硅谷会把事情炒得过头，而世界其他地方又会低估它们。所以，你知道，这里每场谈话都离不开 AI。嗯，感觉你去爱荷华州，没人谈 AI，但你把它展示给他们看，他们就会说：“天哪，这怎么可能是真的？”因为他们三年前试过。呃，就像你一样，我刚买了一辆新特斯拉。我记得我以前有一辆老款 Model 3。我觉得这很好地比喻了我们正在谈论的事情。比如，我在 2017 年有一辆老款 Model 3，自动驾驶完全不能用，简直是个笑话。后来我换了辆车，而现在它居然真的能用了，但我还是有些怀疑，因为我习惯了 2017 年那会儿的表现。Guest: right? Well, maybe on that, like what do you think is overhyped versus underhyped in terms of everything that's happening? I mean, in general, my rule of thumb is that Silicon Valley overhypes things, but then the rest of the world underhypes things. So, you know, everything here, every conversation is AI. Um, and it feels like you go to Iowa, nobody's talking about AI, but then you show it to them like, "Holy how is this real?" because they tried it three years ago and uh like you I just bought a new Tesla and I remember I had I had an old Model 3. I think this is a good metaphor for what we're talking about. Like I had an old Model 3 in 2017 with self-driving didn't work at all. It was a joke. Eventually got, you know, got a different car and now it's like it actually works, but I was skeptical because I was used to the 2017 thing.

是啊。对。我觉得现在 AI 的很多发展都在印证这一点：如果你在 2022 年试过 ChatGPT，那时候它还会产生各种幻觉之类的，你可能会想：“哦，这就是个挺可爱的玩具，比如用来写写诗。嗯，或者在英语课上帮我做做作业什么的。但它不可能真的替我买东西，也不可能写代码。”可它现在这些事都做得到。所以我想问问，关于现在发生的这一切，你觉得哪些被低估了，哪些又被过度炒作了？Yeah. Right. And I feel like a lot of that is playing out with AI right now where if if you had tried chat GPT with all the hallucinations and everything in 2022. You're like, "Oh, it's a cute toy for like writing poems. Um, but or doing my homework in English class or something. This is not going to actually buy things for me. This is not going to write code. It does all these things right now." So, I guess what what do you think is underhyped versus overhyped in terms of everything that's going on?

主持人：是的。所以，也许我先从那些被过度炒作的说起。我不认为会出现储蓄存款挤兑，代理会为了最大化收益，把我的钱在不同账户之间来回转。我是说，一个很好的例子就是，我是 Mercury 个人账户的忠实客户，也是 Chase 的客户。理想情况下，我应该把所有存款都放在 Mercury，那里的储蓄利率很不错；然后等到最后需要支付账单时，再把现金转到我现有的银行 Chase。不过他们的账单支付功能就是更好用，集成也更多，而且我已经做了更多相应的设置。所以我认为，现实中存在足够多的摩擦，因此我们不会在金融服务领域看到一些疯狂的波动。Host: Yeah. So, maybe maybe I'll start with with with overhyped. Like I don't think we're going to get a bank run on savings deposits where agents are going to sort of maximize yield and move my money around between different accounts. I mean a perfect example I am a very happy you know Mercury personal account uh customer. I'm also a Chase customer and you know ideally I should put all my savings in mercury where I get a very good savings rate and then at the last moment when I have to make bill sort of pay bills I'll move I'll I'll move over the the the cash to you know over to um over to my existing bank Chase but their bill pay just works better and it's it it has more integrations and I have more kind of setup. So I I think there's enough friction in in the world where we we won't see some of the crazy volatility in in financial services.

嗯，我觉得可能被低估的是，有很多需求还没有变现。嗯，这既体现在你本来就能期待 GDP 更高的那类地区。举个例子，我们有个骑行群，是 WhatsApp 群，群里有个人——我觉得大概每六个月吧——我们的朋友 Seth 就会推荐新款轮胎，因为他会看滚动阻力。每次他这么做，我都会想，哦，我应该记得去买那款轮胎，因为它们更安全；但我只会买，大概两年买一次吧。要是我的智能代理也在那个群聊里，每次 Seth 提出新的推荐，我都会买轮胎。Alex，你在自行车装备上的消费远远没有变现到位啊。如果智能代理能找到对你骑行有帮助的东西，然后直接替你买下来，那 Alex 在骑行上的 GDP 就会更高。Um I think maybe what's underhyped there is a lot of demand that is unmonetized. Um and this is both at the sort of part of the world where you could expect more GDP. An example of this is we actually have a group cycling WhatsApp group and we have a person on that group who every I don't seems like every six months when you know our friend Seth comes up with a new recommendation for what tires to get because he looks at rolling resistance and every time he does this I'm like oh I should remember to buy those tires cuz they're safer but I only buy it you know every sort of you know two years. If my agent was in that group chat, I would be buying tires every time Seth makes a new recommendation. You're dramatically undermonetized on your on your bike equipment, Alex. If the agent could find things that could help you with cycling and just bought them for you, there's more GDP coming out of Alex on cycling,

主持人：对吗？Host: right?

嘉宾：这方面被低估了。嗯，与此同时，智能体会帮我们省钱。你知道，可能有很多情况是，我要么有某种订阅服务，取消起来特别麻烦，要么参加了某个试用，后来就忘了。所以我觉得，智能体会同时帮我们省钱，也许还能用省下来的钱帮我们买，你知道，买一些新的东西。所以我觉得，我们还没有真正体验到这些智能体全天候运行的特性；而据我所知，人类的欲望和需求是无穷无尽的。所以我总会想要别的东西，因此我觉得这就是……Guest: That is underhyped. Um, at the same time, agents are going to save us money. So like you know there's probably many places where I'm either I I have some subscription and it's just been a hassle to cancel or I did some trial and I forgot about it. So I think agents will simultaneously save us money maybe use that that savings to to help us buy you know buy sort of you know new new items. So I I think we are have yet to experience the always on nature of these agents and as far as I can tell human desires and needs are infinite. So there's always something else that I will want and so I I I think that is that's

主持人：也许可以说是这种对抗性的模式，与……嗯，调和性的模式，或者说这里与“对抗性”相反的词。我是说，人们对智能体特别兴奋的地方，很大程度上在于它能为你完成一些刻意设计得很难、而且基本不受经济规律支配的事情。经济规律嘛，你知道，比如说，高价的解药就是高价本身。Host: maybe on this kind of antagonistic versus um consiliatory or whatever the opposite of antagonistic would be here. I mean, a lot of what people are very excited about with the agents is it gets something for you that is intentionally hard and is not really subject to the laws of economics. The laws of economics are like, you know, the cure for high prices is high prices.

嘉宾：如果订餐厅很难，因为你得早上7点打电话，那现在每个人都有一个能在早上7点打电话的工具。因此，最先拥有这个工具的五个人，现在手里有个了不起的工具。至于最后拥有的五个人，就会觉得“不不不不，太挤了，挤得都没人来了”——大概就是这种感觉。那么，你觉得世界会因此发生怎样的变化？因为感觉现在我们正处在一个很奇怪的位置：很多很多早期的成功——如果你愿意这么说的话——那些面向消费者的成功案例，都是“哦，它帮我省了钱”“它帮我做了这件事”之类的，因为存在信息不对称。对吧？Guest: If it's really hard to get a restaurant reservation because you have to call at 7 a.m., well, now everybody has a tool that calls at 7 a.m. And therefore, uh, the first five people that have the tool, now they have an amazing tool. the last five people like no no no no like it's it's you know it's so crowded nobody goes here anymore kind of thing. So um how do you think the world changes because it feels like right now this is the weird this is the weird position that we're in is that a lot a lot of the early wins if you will the consumer successes are around like oh it saved me money it did this because of the asymmetry. Yeah,

主持人：对。就只有极少数人有这个工具。商家或交易对手完全不知道发生了什么。我等不及了。你知道，作为消费者，我一直被训练得会说：“不，不，我要跟客服人员谈，或者按 0。”或者你也可以搜搜怎么逃出那该死的电话菜单。我等不及听到对方说：“不，我得跟 Terry 谈。我才不跟 Muse 谈。”对吧。那不是很好笑吗？你打给 Comcast，说：“我讨厌你。你真差劲。你们的服务糟透了。你们断线了 10 次。我老是遇到这种事。”然后，不过我当然……嗯，我确实会用 codeex 这么做，因为后来发现 Comcast 在封锁……Host: right. Like a very small number of people have the tool. The merchant or the counterparty has no idea what's going on. I can't wait. You know how like as a consumer I've been trained to say, "No, no, I want to talk to an agent or press zero." Or it's like you can look up how do you get out of the stupid phone tree. I can't wait for the other side to say, "No, I have to talk to Terry. I ain't talking to Muse." Yeah. Right. Like wouldn't that be funny? You call Comcast, you're like, "I hate you. You suck. Your service is terrible. You went down 10 times. This is I do this all the time." And then but I of course have uh I actually do this with codeex because it turned out Comcast is blocking

客人：博物馆。Guest: musees.

主持人：他们知道 IP 地址之类的信息，所以不让你登录。我就让 ChatGPT，你知道，Codex Astra 之类的工具登录我的电脑，什么都能做。但我在等那一天：Comcast 会不会说“我们知道这不是你，对吧？让 Alex 接电话”，因为我不会把什么东西交给他的智能代理。而这会发生，是因为现在，还是那句话，这就是我所说的不对称性。只有少数内部人士拥有这种工具。但你知道吗？这不可能无限扩张，因为世界会做出调整。Host: They know the IP addresses or something so it won't let you log in. So I just have chat GPT you know Codex Astra like login on my computer does everything but I'm waiting for the day when Comcast says we know this ain't you right? Like put Alex on the line because I'm not giving something to his agent. And that's going to because right now again that's what I mean by the asymmetry. It's like the small number of insiders have this tool. But you know what? It's not going to you can't scale that infinitely because the world is going to adapt.

嘉宾：虽然我确实有消息要告诉康卡斯特。GPT Astra 和 Alex 算是差不多同一类……对手。所以，所以如果你在电话里接到他们，要小心。Guest: Although I do have news for Comcast. The GPT Astra and Alex are about the same uh sort of foe. So So be careful if you if you get them on the phone.

主持人：嗯，是的，我的意思是，我觉得你指出了一点，而这正是我们尚未意识到的。Host: Um yeah, I mean I think you're pointing out something that that we have yet to appreciate, which is

嘉宾：当你真正去阅读条款和条件，并设法触及允许与禁止的边界时，会发生什么？比如说，前几天我在看机票。我想买一张价格刚好处于我能接受的上限、同时又能让我升舱的机票。这事挺难办的，有时候我会选得超出预算。我的智能代理就把这件事办得恰到好处。嗯，或者说，凡是条款和条件特别难弄清楚的情况，都可以作为例子。比如，奖励会怎么样？信用卡奖励之所以存在，只是因为我给你提供了一个非常醒目的餐饮消费奖励，但你也会用这张卡加油。如果智能代理介入了我们所有的交易，而我只有在能拿到积分的卡上才能获得积分——也就是说，我只会在能拿到积分时才使用那张卡——那么整个积分奖励生态系统就会崩溃。Guest: what happens when you actually read the terms and conditions and go to the edge of what is allowed and disallowed. So, you know, an example, the other day I was looking at flights. I wanted to buy a flight that was on the edge of the price that I could pay that would get me an upgrade. And that's a kind of a hard thing to do. Sometimes I overshoot it. My agent did that perfectly. Um or um you know, sort of any any case where it's very difficult to uncover the terms and conditions. Like a good example might be what happens to rewards? Like rewards on cards are only there because I get you this very sort of big headline reward on dining, but then you also spend it on fuel. And if agents are intermediating all of our transactions and I'm only getting points on the card that gets me I'm only using the card where I get points, the whole points reward ecosystem falls apart.

很多很多这类东西都可能开始出问题；任何包含某种损耗模型的东西都会开始瓦解，然后我们就得制定新的条款和条件。所以也许这样更好，也许更糟。我不知道，但肯定会有所不同。many many of these things could start any anything with a with a sort of breakage model in it is going to start to fall apart and then we will have to have new terms and conditions. So maybe that's better, maybe that's worse. I don't know, but it'll certainly be be different.

主持人：那么，围绕这些主题，你觉得 VGS 会朝什么方向发展？因为……Host: And maybe what what are you kind of with all of these themes like what where do you think VGS is is going to go? Because

VGS 的下一步发展方向Where VGS goes next

我还是觉得这特别有意思，因为这是全世界最无聊的生意：它就是一个巨大的保险库，存放着几乎所有人的支付凭证——我敢打包票，收听这个播客的大多数人都有凭证存储在 VGS，因为你们会和使用 VGS 存储凭证的商家进行交易。所以，这是一个非常有利的位置，而且它发展得相当快，毕竟每个商家都需要存储他们所服务的消费者的凭证。不过，在我们聊到的这些内容里，你觉得 VGS 的未来最令人兴奋的是什么？I again I find it so interesting because it's the world's most boring business around it's this giant vault that stores all of the payment credentials for like most like everybody who's listening to this podcast I almost guarantee you have a credential that's stored at VGS because you interact with the merchant that uses VGS for storage of credentials. So that's a it's a really formidable position to be in and it's been growing remarkably just because like yeah you need to every merchant needs to store the credentials of the consumers that they work with but like where do you think is the most exciting of everything that we've talked about for VGS's future?

嘉宾：是的。所以，我觉得 VGS 大致有三个彼此重叠、相互叠加的时代。你提到了第一个时代，也就是保险库。这十年来，它逐渐成为整个互联网最值得信赖的凭证存储库。这门生意非常难做，但你知道，这就是这家公司所处的那种优势地位。第二个时代就是你刚才说的，信息进出这个保险库。也就是说，这些凭证中有三分之一必须更新。这件事变得非常有意思，也很复杂，因为每个网络都有自己的凭证更新标准，而且每个网络都创建了多个代表这个保险库的网络令牌。如果你只是存储信息，那还好说，但你必须存储信息，还得从各个网络获取一系列令牌，这样数据才能有效地保持更新。Guest: Yeah. So uh I think there's sort of three eras of VGS that are kind of overlapping and compounding and you talked about the first era which is the vault. This is 10 years as sort of becoming the most trusted store for credentials across the internet. Very hard business to to to execute on, but that's you know that's the sort of privileged position that the company's in. The second era has been what you talked about sort of you know information going into and out of that vault. So that's a third of those credentials have to be updated. That's become very interesting and complicated because each network has their own standard for how you update their credentials and each network has created multiple network tokens that represent the vault. If you were just storing the information be one thing, but you have to store it and uh get a uh a series of tokens from the networks um so that so that the data is effectively you know refreshed

主持人：对。第三个时代就是我们所说的网络时代，也就是在多方之间撮合凭证，并按照合理的规则进行撮合，从而为整个生态系统中的所有参与者创造价值。我们现在正开始通过智能体商务来实现这一点。嗯，还有其他一些情况，比如 VGS 实际上正在与银行合作推进令牌化。因此，如果你对银行卡进行令牌化并存储这些卡片，你就同时处于这个生态系统的两端，这让你能够进行一些信息交换——也就是你知道的、你刚才提到的那些交换。所以，这些因素结合在一起，我们将继续充当一个保险库。我们会继续增加服务；随着我们为更多商户和发卡机构提供更多服务，我们也会持续产生网络效应，让你能够在各方之间撮合凭证。我认为，智能体商务只会为这个生态系统注入更多动力。Host: right. The third era is what we call the network era which is this this role of uh brokering the credentials among multiple parties in a way that makes sense according to the rules and that adds value to to all to all of the ecosystem players and we're sort of starting to do that now with Aentic commerce. Um there are other cases where VGS is actually working with the banks on the tokenization front. So if you're if you're tokenizing the cards and you're storing the cards, you're on both sides of this of this ecosystem, which allows you to do some of the information swaps that that you you know that you that you sort of talked about earlier. So and and and all all of these combine all of these combine will continue to be a vault. We'll continue to add services and as we add more services on more merchants and and more issuers we continue to get this network effect where you can broker credentials you know among the parties and I think agentic commerce is just fuel into that ecosystem.

嘉宾：嗯，Terry，这次回忆往事真挺有意思的。嗯，改天我们应该做一期——我们以前做过吗？我想我们很久以前确实做过一期 TrialPay 的历史回顾。Guest: Well Terry this is uh this has been fun down memory lane. Um one of these days we should do did we ever I think we actually did a history of trial pay one a long time ago.

主持人：是啊，我觉得我们应该……应该重录一下。那是我们做的第一批播客之一，当时的录音室，你知道，没那么好。不过我觉得，第一期播客和这一期有一点是相同的：你应该多给你妻子买些花。Host: Yeah I think we should we should redo it. It was it was one of the first podcasts that we did, the the studio wasn't, you know, wasn't as nice. But I think what's consistent between that first podcast and this one is you should be buying more flowers for for your wife.

嘉宾：是的。我觉得这是个很棒的主意。好吧，非常感谢。Guest: Yes. I think that I think that's a great idea. All right. Well, thank you very much.

嘉宾：感谢您的邀请。Guest: Thank you for having me.