Alexandr Wang 谈 Muse：个人智能体、产品判断与团队重建

简要描述Brief Description

Creating Muse: The Fastest-Growing AI Product Since ChatGPT | Alexandr Wang， Meta

目录Table of Contents

• Muse 背后的愿景
  The vision behind Muse
• 探索个人 AI 智能体的潜力
  Discovering the potential of personal AI agents
• 一次 AI 会话，抵得上三年的心理治疗
  Three years of therapy in one AI session
• 用 7 个月打造 Muse
  Building Muse in 7 months
• Meta为何押注个人AI
  Why Meta bet on personal AI
• 马克·扎克伯格对改进产品的执着追求
  Mark Zuckerberg's obsession with improving products
• Meta 如何得知 Muse 已准备好发布
  How Meta knew Muse was ready to launch
• 为什么优秀的产品需要一个统一的愿景
  Why great products need a single point of view
• 用表情包让 Meta 重回酷炫
  Making Meta cool again with memes
• 与 AI 智能体建立信任
  Building trust with AI agents
• 人类雄心的未来
  The future of human ambition
• 马克·扎克伯格那个改变一切的电话
  The call from Mark Zuckerberg that changed everything
• 离开 Scale AI，加入 Meta
  Leaving Scale AI for Meta
• 从零开始重建 Meta 的 AI 实验室
  Rebuilding Meta's AI lab from scratch
• 从创始人到教练
  From founder to coach
• 亚历山大19岁生日派对上的未来亿万富翁们
  The future billionaires at Alexandr's 19th birthday party
• 钻石开采与建造摩天大楼的对比
  Diamond mining vs. building skyscrapers
• 为什么亚历山大有 200 多名直接下属
  Why Alexandr has more than 200 direct reports

Muse 背后的愿景The vision behind Muse

跟我讲讲 Muse 的发展历程。首先大概得从我们创立 Meta 超级智能实验室时的愿景说起。创立实验室时，Mark 发布了一份备忘录，我、Natt Friedman 以及其他一些人都和他密切合作，一起完成了这份名为《个人超级智能》的备忘录。核心想法是：我们该如何打造 AI？如何构建强大的 AI，真正让每个人的生活变得更好？换句话说，我们如何打造一种真正能广泛提升人类体验的东西？ 你知道，在那份备忘录里，我们谈到了很多想法，也基本上暗示了我认为 Muse 最终会发展的许多方向，但当时只是非常非常早期地触及了这些内容。那时是 2025 年 6 月左右，智能体还谈不上真正出现，更别说发挥什么实质作用了。你知道，到了 2025 年夏天，AI 的发展状况完全是另一番景象。Tell me the history of Muse. The first thing to start with is probably like what our vision was when we started Meta Super Intelligence Labs. And when we started it, Mark published this memo that myself and Natt Friedman and a bunch of others like worked together with him closely on called Personal Super Intelligence. And the whole idea was like how do we make AI how do we build powerful AI that actually makes all of our lives better? like how do we build something that actually like lifts the human experience broadly speaking. You know, in that memo, we we spoke to a bunch of the ideas and we basically alluded to I think a lot of what muses ultimately become, but we were gesturing at it like very very early like this was in you know June 2025 um before really agents had happened in any meaningful way you know in the summer of 2025 like AI was just you know in a totally different spot.

但那正是我们想要努力实现的目标。那是 MSL 的使命，也是我们真正想带领一切走向的方向。然后我们就开始着手构建模型，因为你知道，开发这些前沿模型的端到端流程需要很多很多个月。嗯，比如说，你必须走完整个流程：搭建完整的技术栈、生成数据集、预训练模型，然后对模型进行后训练，还得为此搭建一整套技术栈。这是一个非常漫长的端到端流程。嗯，今年年初，这整条生产线……你But that's where what we wanted to build towards. That was the mission of MSL and that was really the where we wanted to take everything. Then we kind of just got to work building models because you know the endto-end process of developing any of these frontier models is many many many months. Um like you have to go through you have to build your entire stack you have to produce the data sets you have to you know pre-train the model then you have to do pro training the model you have to build a whole stack for that. like is an it's a very lengthy end to- end process. Um and kind of this whole um production line at the start of this year um you

探索个人 AI 智能体的潜力Discovering the potential of personal AI agents

你知道，Opus 4.5 显然真的让很多人——包括我们——开始看到智能体的未来可能是什么样，或者说已经是什么样了，也确实让智能体的潜力进入了人们的视野。OpenClaw 是在年初出现的。Natt Freriedman，你知道，我和他合作得很密切，我想他是 MSL 内部第一个接触 OpenClaw 并尝试使用它的人。他的体验，我会形容为介于惊恐和欣喜若狂之间。我的意思是，我觉得他真的……我想他完全投入了进去。他彻底信任它。你知道，他讲过一些这样的故事；他参加过一次 Stripe Sessions 的访谈，在里面聊到了其中一些经历。他说，他告诉自己的 OpenClaw 想多喝点水，然后他的 OpenClaw 就会通过监控录像观察他，确保他在喝水，还会夸他做得好。他还讲过很多很多类似的疯狂故事。这也会让你意识到：哦，这里发生的事情确实有种相当神奇的感觉。know Opus 4.5 obviously like really caused many people including including us to sort of like see what the future of agents could be or was and really brought the sort of like potential of agents to the foreground and openclaw was happening at the start of the year. Natt Freriedman, who you know I work closely with, was I think the first person within MSL to uh work with OpenClaw and try OpenClaw. He had an experience I would I would describe as somewhere between terrifying and euphoric. Like I think he he really like I think went all in. He trusted entirely. you know, he's told some of these stories that uh he had like a a Stripe Sessions interview where he talked about some of this where, you know, he told his open claw that he wanted to drink more water and then, you know, his openclaw would like watch him in security footage to make sure that he was drinking water and tell him good job and he had like many many crazy stories like this and it also makes you realize like, oh, there's something quite quite magical about what's happening here.

我记得 Nat 跟我说过的一件事，也是我印象最深的事情之一。他说：“我觉得这里面真的有些东西。”而且你知道，Nat Friedman 是个相当不错的早期采用者风向标，因为他当年是 Stripe 最早的一批客户之一，后来也很早就投身于很多开源开发者相关的事情，还帮助打造了 GitHub Copilot，以及许多其他东西。所以那是一个很明确的信号。就像是，好的，显然个人智能体通常来说有某种相当神奇的地方。不过你知道，当你真正开始信任这个个人智能体，并且真的让它融入自己的生活时，你会发现它能做的事情非常多。听了所有这些不可思议的故事之后，我开始深入地使用它。And I remember one of the things that that Nat told me and this is one of the things I remember the most is he said I think there really is something here and I don't know like early adopter Nat Freedman is like a pretty good indicator cuz he was one of the he was one of the first customers of Stripe back in the day and then was really ear early on a lot of open source developer stuff and he also you know helped create GitHub copilot and many other things. So that was like a clear signal. It's like, okay, there's clearly something pretty magical about personal agents generally speaking. But you know, when you actually kind of trust the personal agent and and really bring it into your life, it is the ability to do so many things. And after hearing all of these crazy stories, I start using it very deeply.

你知道，我觉得有好几个星期吧，我们俩差不多一有空就会跟自己的 OpenClaw 聊天，然后你知道，真的沉浸在个人智能体这类东西里……You know, I think for many weeks I think both of us were sort of like every spare moment we would just spend talking to our open claws and like you know, you know, really immersing ourselves in like what personal agents

一次 AI 会话，抵得上三年的治疗疗程Three years of therapy in one AI session

可能是。could be.

主持人：你最初的反应是什么？欣喜若狂，还是惊恐万分？Host: What was your initial reaction? Euphoria or terror?

嘉宾：当时 Nat 有这个，嗯，他写了这个提示词，基本上就是用来对你自己进行全面的精神分析。里面有好几轮深入的心理探查。他基本上写了这个提示词，让你用 OpenClaw。我想那是我用自己的 OpenClaw 做的最早几件事之一。那大概相当于把三年的心理治疗都压缩到了这么一个时刻里。Guest: Nat at the time he had this um he had built this prompt to do this like basically like full psychoanalysis of yourself. There were like multiple waves of like deep psychological probing. He basically wrote this prompt for you to to use an open claw. And I think that was like one of the very first things I did with with my own openclaw. It was maybe the equivalent of like 3 years of therapy all, you know, compressed into this one moment.

主持人：等等，我很好奇，为什么你第一次参加公开试镜时，就把这件事列为最先做的事情之一？Host: Wait, I'm curious why when you get your first shot at open call, this is one of the first things you do.

嘉宾：你知道，我把它下载了，也安装了。然后 Nat 就说：“哦，你应该这么做。”我当时就、就站在他旁边。他说：“好吧，那我就照你说的做。”然后……Guest: You know, I downloaded it. I installed it. And then Nat was like, "Oh, you should do this." I was like I was like next to him. He was like, "Okay, I'll just do the thing you're telling me to do." And then

主持人：好的，嗯.Host: okay um

嘉宾：然后，你知道，那真是一次疯狂的经历。Guest: and then you know this crazy experience.

主持人：等等，详细说说那段疯狂的经历吧。Host: Wait say more about the crazy experience though.

嘉宾：哦，这个过程真的非常强烈。我的意思是，这就像是又经历了三年的心理治疗，因为那是一轮接一轮深入的心理探查——呃，它还掌握着我的其他信息。它可以访问我的电子邮件，也能访问我的很多照片，而且它还能去查找其他信息，再把所有信息整合起来。在这个过程中，我非常脆弱。这是在二月份。呃，我觉得我们双方当时都得出了一个共同结论：这件事显然有些特别，我们之间显然正在发生一些很特别的事情。那时我们都写了备忘录，我们把备忘录——你知道——通过 Meta 董事会上报了。嗯，因为不知什么原因，正好赶上董事会季节。我写了一份备忘录，谈了谈我的感受：在很多方面，这就是最终形态的消费级产品，而超级智能体对于消费级产品来说，在很多方面都像是一个明确的终点。Guest: Oh well it was just like very intense. I mean it was like again it was like 3 years of therapy because it was just like successive rounds of like deep uh psychological probing cuz it had other information about me. It had you know access to my email and access to a bunch of my photos and like it could like go and look up other information and sort of pull it all together. I was very vulnerable through that process. This was in February. uh both of us I think had come to this like joint conclusion that this is this is clearly like you know there's clearly something really special happening here and we both wrote memos at that time I wrote a memo about and both of these we you know kind of like sent up through the meta board um cuz you know for whatever reason it's board season I wrote a memo about how I felt that in many ways this was like the final consumer product and that the super agent was something that was like as far as consumer products went like a clear end point in many ways.

然后他写了一篇叫……他实际上写了两篇，其中有一些令人印象深刻的主张：“条款、法律和信任是必不可少的。”这最终定义了我们构建这些产品的许多核心原则。于是我们得出了这个结论。那是在二月份。这里有一件非常重要的事。然后我们组建了团队，大概用了一周，也许两周，就做出了一个原型。嗯，然后……And then he wrote one called he wrote actually two uh which had very memorable blames the clause the law and trust is a must which ultimately defined um a lot of the a lot of the core of how we built these products. So we came to this conclusion. This was in February. There was something very important here. Um and then we built you know our teams we built a prototype within like a a week maybe two weeks. Um and

用 7 个月打造 MuseBuilding Muse in 7 months

我们把它演示给董事会看，整个过程就像是一个非常快速的迭代周期，而最终 Muse 产品中的许多决策，在第一个原型里就已经出现了。Jollybot 当时就在那儿，你知道，Muse Charm 的早期版本也在那第一次、非常早期的会议上。并不是所有想法、也不是所有标签页都已经有了，但其中很多都已经出现了。 之后，你知道，很显然，那是二月；七个月后我们就推出了产品。中间这个过程真的、真的很艰难：我们得把这个原型——它有时能用，效果也很神奇，但大多数时候都不能用，还会不断出故障——变成一种高度可靠的产品。你知道，就像是一款精心打造的精美消费品，让我们有信心把它作为一份贡献带给消费市场。demoed it to the board like it was this like very fast cycle and many of the decisions that made its way into the final Muse product were present in the first prototype. The Jollybot was there know the early version of the Muse Charm was in that first that very first meeting. Not all of the ideas and not all the tabs were there but a lot of them were present. Then from there, you know, obviously that was February, we launched the product 7 months later was like the really really hard process of taking this, you know, prototype where it it like sometimes worked and was magical but most of the time didn't work and would constantly break and like going from there to something that would be highly reliable like you know kind of like a beautiful crafted consumer product that we felt confident as a contribution to the consumer world.

而且那是一个非常漫长、相当痛苦的过程。然后……And that that was like this very lengthy and quite painful process. And

主持人：在谈到那件事之前，我想先回到你们编写原型这件事上。你们大概用了一到两周就做出了原型，然后拿给董事会看。马克在这一切中扮演什么角色？Host: before we get there, I want to go back to the idea that you wrote the prototype. You guys created the prototype in like a one to two weeks. You show to the board. What's Mark's role in all this?

嘉宾：他当时就像和我们所有人一样，同时体验着那种对这个产品的兴奋与恐惧。我觉得他在各种采访里都聊过这件事。比如说，我记得他把它用在家里的很多事情上，也会和孩子一起用，还用在他的 MMA 训练中。他会让它观看自己进行 MMA 训练的视频，然后它就会给他一些建议，告诉他怎样改进。还有一些员工会议——顺便说一句，这后来成了 Meta 团队里很多人都会做的事——大家会开员工会议，聊聊自己和智能体一起经历过哪些疯狂的事情。这还是在二月份。回想整个过程很有意思，因为显然，openclaw 热潮一度达到顶峰，随后就消失了。Guest: He was like experiencing the sort of like euphoria/ terror of the product at the same time as all of us. I think he's talked about this in various interviews, but like I think he he used it for a bunch of things around the home and he was using it with his kids and he used it in his um uh in his MMA training. Like he had it watch videos of his of himself doing MMA training and like it would give him tips on like how to improve. there were like some staff meetings and by the way like you know this kind of became a thing for for much of the the meta team um was like having these having a staff meeting and saying like what were the what were the crazy experiences that you had with um with with your agent again this was back in February. It's very interesting to kind of um think back to this whole cycle because obviously the openclaw phenomena it peaked and then disappeared.

是的，确实有过这种情况，你知道，它并没有持续下去。我觉得很多人都有过类似的体验：偶尔会有一些神奇的时刻，但大多数时候用起来并不顺畅，还会遇到各种问题。后来热度也就慢慢退了。所以我觉得，打造这个产品时，很大一部分重点就是：如何把它变成一种真正可靠的消费级体验，让你放心地逐步推向数十亿人，并且确信其中大多数人都能获得很棒的体验。Yeah, there were, you know, it didn't it didn't persist and and I think a lot of people kind of had this experience which was it was just like you'd have these magic moments but for the most part didn't like work that well and there were all these problems and then you know it just kind of like died down and so part of I think the building the product a lot of the focus of the product was just like how do you make this into an actual reliable consumer experience that you feel comfortable putting in front of over time billions of people and you can feel confident that like most of those people have an amazing experience.

主持人：为什么你能做到这一点，而开发者开放电话会却做不到？Host: Why were you able to do that and the developers open call were not?

嘉宾：嗯，首先，我认为我们非常尊重 Peter Seinberger，也非常尊重所有为 OpenClaw 做出贡献的人。我觉得 Peter 绝对是一位有远见的人。我认为，OpenClaw 的诞生源于他那颗美妙的大脑中的某种神奇想法。而我觉得，Muse 之所以如此神奇，或许不那么光鲜的一面，就是我们确实埋头苦干、不断打磨所有细节，让模型与产品结合后的体验真正出色；而且我们对模型本身进行了很多很多轮迭代。总体来说，我们的模型路线图旨在打造个人超级智能，当然也包括个人智能体，比如……Guest: Well, first of all, I think we respect Peter Seinberger and everyone who's contributed to OpenClaw immensely. Like I think Peter is definitely a visionary. I think whatever happened in his beautiful brain that created OpenClaw is magical. And I think maybe the unglamorous part of what made made Muse so magical was just really grinding out and sanding out all of the details to make the combined model plus product experience really amazing and we did many many iterations on the model itself. We aimed the overall model roadmap towards building towards personal super intelligence broadly speaking but certainly personal agents as like

主持人：再多谈谈这一点，以及这如何让你们区别于其他竞争对手。Host: say more about that and how that differentiates between your other competitors.

嘉宾：是的。嗯，这个，这个有点……Guest: Yeah. Well, this is this is kind of

主持人：这确实很有意思。Host: that's actually really interesting.

Meta为何押注个人 AIWhy Meta bet on personal AI

嘉宾：是的。回到当时那个时刻其实很有帮助，因为如果回到年初，也就是二月，Opus 和 Claude 在编程方面远远领先于其他所有人，而且势头正猛。那是整个行业开始出现某种 Anthropic 接管局面的开端；总的来说，我觉得那是个非常令人害怕的时刻——你会想，哇，他们在编程方面领先这么多。而且显然，他们还有 Mythos，你知道，他们当时确实有明显的领先优势。我觉得当时业内的普遍看法是，编程智能体是唯一重要的产品形态，或者说是唯一重要的技术，或者是先进 AI 唯一重要的能力。Guest: Yeah. It's actually useful to go back to the moment because if you go back to the start of the year, February, Opus and Claude were way ahead in coding, way ahead of anyone else and they were exploding. It was the beginning of the sort of like you know enthropic takeover in the whole industry and it was a very scary moment I think generally speaking which is like oh wow this is you know they're so ahead on coding and and then obviously they had mythos and you know they were they had like this clear lead. I think the the conventional wisdom in the industry was that coding agents were the only form factor that mattered or maybe the only technology that mattered or only the only capability that mattered for advanced AI.

你知道，行业里有一股非常强大的力量，大家都想涌入那个应用场景，在编码智能体领域与 Anthropic 竞争。而这和我们的经历以及信念有关——我认为，我们的信念是围绕个人智能体这个理念逐渐形成的。退一步来看，我想我们最初之所以要做个人超级智能，是因为我们也相信，这是 Meta 得天独厚、最适合去做的事。关于这一点，我们可以再多聊聊，但我觉得正是因为这个……you know there's this incredible force in the industry to just like go and crowd that use case and compete with enthropic on coding agents because of our experiences and our conviction that I think formed around this idea of personal agents and the sort of taking a step back I think the reason why we did personal super intelligence in the first place was that it was also what we believed meta was uniquely positioned to do and we can talk more about that but like I think because of that

主持人：好，我们现在来谈谈这个。Host: well let's talk about that now

嘉宾：好吧，那我们就来做这个交织。我想，在 Scale AI 和 Meta 的那笔交易以及其他所有事情发生之前，我最早跟马克说过的话之一就是：我觉得，如果我们拥有 AGI、ASI，或者你想怎么称呼都行，Meta 实际上是一家非常特别的公司。因为 AI 的承诺之一在于，我们每个人都有想做的事，也有不得不做的事。AGI 的承诺是，我们几乎不用再花时间做那些不得不做的事，因为 AI 系统会开始替我们做很多这类事情，这样我们就可以把所有时间都花在想做的事情上。对我来说，Meta 的产品代表了我们所有人想做的事情。比如我使用 Instagram、WhatsApp 或 Facebook——这些产品承载着我的兴趣，你懂的，我会关注自己感兴趣的东西。Guest: okay we'll just do do the weave. I think one of the first things I told Mark even before the whole scale and meta deal happened and and everything, one of the first things I told him was I think Meta is actually a really special company if we have AGI or ASI or whatever you want to call it. Because part of the promise of AI is that for all of us, we have a mix of things that we want to do and things that we have to do. And the promise of AGI is that we're going to spend almost none of the time doing things that we have to do because the AIS will just start doing a lot of that for us and we can spend all of our time on things that we want to do. And for me, Meta's products represent the things that we all want to do. Like my use of Instagram or WhatsApp or Facebook like these are products that represent what I, you know, I follow my interests.

我会关注自己的爱好。我会关注所有我喜欢的人——我的朋友，以及我在乎的人。Meta 的产品版图涵盖了我们想要把时间花在什么事情上的领域。我认为，从长远来看，Meta 在这一切中都是一个了不起的赢家。这是我最早相信 Meta 和超级智能的一点。后来，这些想法中的许多最终汇聚成了“个人超级智能”这一概念。你知道，可以从几个角度来看这件事。一个角度是：这家公司的传承是什么？Meta 的传承是把人们与朋友和家人联系起来，嗯，帮助他们发现自己的兴趣。这些都是非常人性化的事情。另一个角度是从商业层面来看：Meta 拥有分发渠道，每天有 35 亿人使用它的应用。I follow my hobbies. I follow all people that I like my friends and the people I care about like the product span of meta encapsulates the sort of like what we want to spend our times doing sort of realm. I think on a long arc meta is an incredible winner through all this. That's like one of the first things that I believed about meta and super intelligence. And then ultimately a lot of those ideas made its way into this concept of personal super intelligence. You know, you can kind of look at it a few ways. One is what's the heritage of the company? The heritage of meta is connecting people with their friends and family. Um, helping them discover their interests. Like these are things that are very human. And then there's also the sort of like you can take the business lens which is Meta has distribution to three and a half billion people using the apps every day.

而 Meadow 天然适合取得成功的领域是消费级 AI。And the natural area where Meadow was going to be successful is consumer AI.

主持人：这不是工作，不是编程，而是私事。Host: It's not work. It's not coding. It's personal.

嘉宾：对，没错。一直以来，我们都觉得，个人智能体、个人 AI，以及广义上的消费级 AI，都是 Meta 有望做出非常特别的东西的领域。所以，接下来就到了 2026 年初。现在你们有了原型，也获得了大家的支持，所有人都知道马克站在你们这边，而你们现在要投入七个月，艰难地打磨这款产品。Guest: Yeah. Exactly. So personal agents and personal AI and and consumer AI, broadly speaking, were always the zones where we always felt that Meta was going to do some be able to do something very special. So that brings us to uh okay, early 2026. Now you have the prototype, you have the buy in, everybody knows Mark's on board and now you're doing the seven months of the difficult work of refining this product.

主持人：是的。当时有一种挥之不去的担忧：个人智能体似乎总是昙花一现，而我们一直觉得，这是因为体验还不够完善、打磨得还不够好之类的。但我们知道，在开发这款产品时，必须认真考虑这件事。我们将模型开发路线图的重点放在了打造个人智能体上，这也是最重要的方向之一。我们有一些很长的电子表格，里面列出了数百种——甚至上千种？倒也没到上千种，但确实超过一百种——具体的行为和能力，而我们知道，模型必须具备这些，才能打造出理想的个人智能体。整个过程非常、非常细致。之后，我们逐步为所有这些都构建了评测。Host: Yes. There was kind of the spectre which was like oh personal agents like they came and went and we always felt that it was because you know the the experience wasn't perfect. It wasn't polished yet you know all that kind of stuff. But like we knew that that was something that we had to like think about as you know as we were developing this product. We focused our model development road map. The top focus uh or one of the top focuses was towards building on personal agents and we had like these long spreadsheets of hundreds or even thousands of different not thousands but but more than a hundred like specific behaviors and capabilities that we knew the model needed to have to be able to build the ideal personal agent. Like it was very very meticulous. And then over time we built evals for all of those.

我们摸索出了如何训练模型，让它在每一件事上都表现得特别特别好。我们还会定期复盘，比如查看那份电子表格，找出我们做得不好的地方，并确保不断改进。我们就是通过这样一个非常细致的流程，一点一点地持续改进，打磨模型的各个细节，让它能够为产品提供支持。We figured out how to train the model to be really really good at every single one of those things. And we have these reviews where we like look at that spreadsheet and we figure out the things that we're bad at and make sure that we're improving on them. Like we did this like very meticulous process to slowly just keep improving and sanding out all the edges of the model so that it could power the product.

主持人：这真的是 Meta 的文化吗？就像这样不断地打磨产品？Host: Is that really the culture of meta too? This like constant like sanding of the products?

嘉宾：是的。Meta 的很多文化就是，一旦你知道要衡量什么，就会有非常优秀的人才，你可以围绕这些指标进行优化，把所有细节都落实到位，让这些方面都做到出色。我觉得在某种意义上说，在 AI 之前的消费级产品时代，很多工作都围绕着如何优化转化率、如何提高推荐率、如何优化新用户引导流程的每一个环节。总之，怎么把所有这些事情都做到尽善尽美？而我觉得到了 AI 时代，尤其是 Muse 的很多工作，都是把模型的每个细节都打磨好，让它完美适配产品。Guest: Yeah. A lot of the culture of meta is like once you know what you're measuring, there's very talented people and you can optimize for those things, you can send out all the details, you can make those things amazing. I think in the sort of like preAI consumer um product era, like a lot of this was around how do you optimize your conversion? How do you optimize the referral rates? How do you optimize like every part of the onboarding flow? Like how do you make all that stuff just perfect? And then I think the AI era I think uh a lot of that especially from Muse has been in the form of sanding out every detail of the model to be perfect for the product.

主持人：我想向大家介绍一下本播客的冠名赞助商 Ramp。最近我读了很多关于 SpaceX 的内容。SpaceX 是全球最有价值的企业之一，而贯穿 SpaceX 发展历程的一个重要主题，就是不断审视并质疑成本。Ramp 帮助全球许多最具创新精神的企业做到这一点。使用 Ramp 的公司中，开支中位数减少了 5%。SpaceX 展示的一点是，坚定不移地控制成本，实际上有助于增加收入，因为这样你就能抓住原本无法把握的机会。我们在 Ramp 的数据中也看到了这一点：使用 Ramp 的公司，营收中位数也增长了 16%。所以，当你用 Ramp 来经营业务，而竞争对手没有这样做时，你就拥有了巨大的竞争优势，而且这种优势会随着时间不断累积。Host: I want to tell you about the presenting sponsor of this podcast ramp. I have been reading a lot about SpaceX lately. SpaceX is one of the most valuable businesses in the world and one of the main themes in the history of SpaceX is constantly attacking and questioning your cost. Ramp helps many of the most innovative businesses in the world do exactly that. The median company running on ramp cuts their expenses by 5%. And one thing SpaceX has demonstrated is that a religious dedication to controlling costs can help actually increase revenue because you can pursue opportunities you couldn't otherwise. And we see that in the RAMP data, too. The median company running on ramp also grows their revenue by 16%. So, when you're running your business on ramp and your competitors are not, you have a massive competitive advantage that compounds over time.

Ramp 是唯一一个旨在让你的财务团队效率更高、工作更愉快的平台。我认识的许多顶尖创始人和 CEO 都用 RAMP 经营自己的企业。我也用 RAMP 经营自己的企业，你也应该这么做。访问 ramp.com，了解它如何帮助你的企业节省时间和资金，并增加收入。网址是 ramp.com。 Deal 能让最优秀的创始人将全世界纳入他们的人才库。十年来，我一直在研究历史上最伟大的创始人是如何做事的。他们有一个共同点：深知招募和聘用最优秀的人才是最重要的任务。优秀人才懂得识别优秀人才，这也是 Ramp、Shopify、11 Labs、Uber 和 Door Dash 等顶尖公司都使用 Deal 的原因。我认识的许多顶尖创始人在使用 Deal 的产品后，也亲自投资了 Deal。Ramp is the only platform designed to make your finance team faster and happier. Many of the top founders and CEOs I know run their business on RAMP. I run my business on RAMP and you should too. Go to ramp.com to learn how it can help your business save time, save money, and grow revenue. That is ramp.com. Deal is how the best founders turn the world into their talent pool. I've been studying how history's greatest founders operate for a decade. And one thing they all have in common is they understand that recruiting and hiring the very best talent is your most important priority. A players recognize other A players, which is why top companies like Ramp, Shopify, 11 Labs, Uber, and Door Dash all use deal. Many of the top founders I know have personally invested in Deal after using their product.

他们发现，Deal 是全球最擅长为全球招聘搭建基础设施的公司。Deal 能帮助你的企业在世界任何地方招聘、支付薪酬并管理员工。这样，你就能留住各地最优秀的人才，把剩余时间用来专注于自己最擅长的事：为客户创造价值。11 Labs 的创始人对 Deal 能为企业带来的价值有一段精彩的描述。他说：“我们创立 11 Labs，旨在打破语言和沟通障碍。Deal 让我们能够在任何地方招聘并支持杰出人才，从而加速创新，让更多声音、故事和创意传遍世界的每个角落。”目前，已有超过 40,000 家企业信赖 Deal，而且这个数字还在快速增长。访问 deal.comra，了解他们如何助力你的企业。And what they discovered is that Deal is the best company in the world at building infrastructure for global hiring. Deal will help your business hire, pay, and manage any worker anywhere in the world. So you can retain the best talent anywhere and spend the rest of your time focusing on what you do best, delivering value to your customers. The founder of 11 Labs has a great description of the value Deal can give your company. He said, "We built 11 Labs to break down language and communication barriers. With deal enabling us to hire and support exceptional talent anywhere, we can accelerate our innovation and bring more voices, stories, and ideas to every corner of the world. Deal is trusted by over 40,000 companies and growing fast. Learn how they can help your business by going to deal.comra.

那就是 deal.com/enra。That is deal.com/enra.

马克·扎克伯格对改进产品的执着追求Mark Zuckerberg's obsession with improving products

主持人：你看了杰里米·斯特恩在《Colossus》上写的那篇关于扎克的特写吗？Host: Did you see this profile that's written on Zuck in Colossus written by Jeremy Stern?

嘉宾：我看到了。说实话，太长了，没看。但Guest: I saw it. If I'm being honest, it was like too long. Didn't read. But

主持人：有 15,000 个词。我刚请杰里米上了播客。他是——他是我最喜欢的人。Host: it's 15,000 words. I just had Jeremy on the podcast. He's he's my favorite.

嘉宾：我看到，我看到，我看到那个了。他，他只是，我觉得他现在写的关于全球企业家和投资者的人物特写是最好的。我觉得他在自己做的事情上简直是世界第一。不过，在那篇扎克的文章里，他谈到了自己相较于埃隆和萨姆·奥特曼的优势，他说：“听着，我的技能组合一点都不性感，但我非常擅长组建团队，然后在很长一段时间里逐步改进产品。”而且，相较于埃隆、萨姆·奥特曼和其他人，他不会失去对公司的控制权，也不需要再融资，所以他可以持续做这件事，时间长得超乎寻常。你刚才说到这段为期 7 个月、试图完善并打造 Muse 的时期时，那篇特写里的这一段就浮现在我脑海里。Guest: I saw I saw I saw that. He's he's just I think he's writing the best profiles on on entrepreneurs and investors in the world right now. I think he's literally the best in the world at what he does. But in that Zach says he was talking about the advantage that he has relative to I think Elon and like Sam Alman and he's just like listen my skill set is very unsexy but I'm really good at building teams and then just improving a product slowly over a long period of time and relative to Elon and and Sam Alman and others. like I'm not going to lose control of my company and I don't need to raise any more money and so I can just do this for an excessively long period of time. That section of the profile is popping in my mind when you're talking about this 7-month uh stretch of trying to refine and build muse.

主持人：我觉得完全没错。我的意思是，这需要极大的耐心。你知道，7个月听起来可能没那么久，但AI领域竞争非常激烈。放在AI的时间尺度里，可是整整七个月啊。Host: I think that's exactly right. Like I think that it took immense patience. I mean 7 months like you know maybe it doesn't sound like that long but AI is like fierce. seven months in AI time.

嘉宾：在 AI 的时间尺度上，七个月可能就像十年；而在非 AI 的时间尺度上也是如此。我觉得这对我们所有人来说都是……嗯，不过这件事我真的很佩服 Mark。他为此付出了很大的耐心和克制，也对这个过程给予了很多信任。你可以回头看看，从二月到九月这段时间里，Mark 在财报电话会议上说了些什么。他会暗示我们正在打造个人智能体，而且我们其实也没怎么试图隐瞒这件事——我们就是在打造个人智能体，也一直在谈这件事。但我觉得，在那整个时期，公司里有很多人对此抱有怀疑。显然，华尔街的一种主流说法是：“天哪，Meta 就是在把这些钱全烧掉。它在 AI 领域到底能不能做成点什么？”Guest: Seven months in AI time, which maybe like a decade and like nonAI time. And I think it it for all of us. Um but but I really give Mark a lot of credit for this. Like it took a lot of patience and restraint and a lot of trust in the process. And like you'll you can go back and look at the you know what Mark said in earnings calls for this entire period from February through through um September and he will allude to the fact that we were building personal agents and we weren't really trying to hide it like we were we were building personal agents and we were talking about it but I think you know there's a lot of doubt in the company for that entire period like people obviously the one of the dominant Wall Street narratives is like oh my god Gosh, Meta is just burning all this money. Like, are they even going to pull anything off in AI?

主持人：不止如此。这就像是大家反复说了很长一段时间的那样：扎克在 AI 领域赢不了。再说回杰里米·斯特恩写的那篇关于他的特写。他后来私下开始和竞争对手交谈，其中包括一位前研究员——这人以前和扎克共事，现在去了另一家竞争对手的实验室。他说：“我不想不得不和他们竞争，因为马克简直是个[ __ ]。我想那句话是：马克就是个[ __ ]终结者。”感觉他就是不肯停下来。然后他说，他的超能力之一就是永远不会对产品的现状感到满意，所以总想不断改进。但他不是个[ __ ]。他不是那种……专横的人；他确实是个独裁者，但他并不粗鲁，也不会毁掉团队的融洽氛围。Host: It's more than that. It's like Zuck cannot win AI. It's said over and over again for a long period of time. And again, going back to Jeremy Stern's profile on him. He then off the record starts talking to his competitors, including one former researcher that is now at a competitor that used to work for with Zuck and is now at another lab. And he goes, "I don't want to have to compete with them cuz Mark's like the [ __ ] I think the line is Mark is the [ __ ] Terminator." And it was like he just does will not stop. And he's like uh then he talks about um one of his superpowers that he's never happy with the state of the product. So he always wants to constant prove but he's not an [ __ ] Like he's not you know dict he's he is definitely a dictator but like he's not you know rude and like kind of will destroy the chemistry of a team.

他在那篇文章中确实谈到，团队凝聚力对他来说极其重要。He actually talks about in the in the piece that team cohesion is excessively important to him.

嘉宾：我觉得还不错。我觉得 Muse 的一个神奇之处在于，在最终推出产品之前，我们确实花了相当多的时间打磨每一个细节，因为我认为个人智能体是一个如履薄冰的产品领域：如果它能可靠地带来这些神奇的体验，就有潜力成为史上最伟大的消费级产品之一。但你面对的是模型，是具有非确定性的东西，是智能体；它们可能会出错，也可能不可靠。要是人们遇到这些不可靠的体验，就会觉得这东西一文不值。这是一件需要把产品打磨到一定的品质和价值水准、从而赢得众多下载并使用它的人的认同的事。Guest: I think it's all right. I think one of the magical things about Muse was that we really like took quite a bit of time to sweat all the details before ultimately coming out with a product because I think that that personal agents was one of these product areas that kind of rested on a knife's edge, which is if it can reliably deliver these magical experiences, it has the potential to be one of the greatest consumer products ever. But you're dealing with models, you're dealing with something nondeterministic, you're dealing with agents, they can break, they can be uh unreliable. Like if people have these unreliable experiences, they think it's trash. It was one of these things where like getting to the product to a point of like quality and value such that it resonated with so many of the people who downloaded and used it.

我想谈谈I want to talk

Meta如何确定Muse已准备好发布How Meta knew Muse was ready to launch

再多谈谈这个过程。我很好奇需要投入多少资源、团队有多大、有多少人在做这件事。你们有没有相关数据，比如说，我在用 Muse 时有九次很棒的体验，两次体验不太稳定，或者说很糟糕，然后我就……你们有这方面的信息吗？年初的时候，你可以从很多其他智能体产品身上看到这种情况：几乎所有产品最终都被用户抛弃了，因为它们不可靠。我们对 Muse 做了很多用户测试。我们进行了很多很多轮测试，让没接触过它的人从头开始尝试下载和使用，看看整个体验是什么样的。Muse 的核心理念中有很大一部分，也是我认为最打动人的地方，在于它和大多数人体验过的消费级 AI 都不一样。more about this process. I'm curious how much resources, how big the team, how many people working on it. Do you guys have any data on like okay I'm using Muse nine great experiences two like inconsistent or you know shitty experiences and then I turn out like do you have any information on this? You can see this from like a lot of the other agent products at the start of the year like almost everyone turned out of those and it's because they were unreliable. We did a lot of user testing of Muse. Like we did many many rounds of new people trying to like download it and and use it from scratch and just seeing what that experience was like. A huge part of the premise of Muse and I think what's really landed is that it is like a different thing from what most people have experienced with consumer AI.

就像，它不是聊天机器人，而是一个智能体，能替你做智能体能做的事情。我觉得对开发者来说，这种事早就不新鲜了，因为他们一直都得下载智能体，也已经用了一段时间。但对大多数人来说，光是这个逐步熟悉的过程就需要解释，而且需要以非常周到的方式引导他们上手。当然，我们确实也发现，毕竟我们测试过不同版本的模型，也一直在持续进行各种 A/B 测试，产品体验对模型质量非常敏感。模型能否可靠地完成这些任务、能否可靠地与用户沟通，以及能否在需要用户指导时及时回头询问，这些都会对体验产生很大影响。Like it is not a chatbot. It is an agent and it can do agent things for you. And like I think to a developer this is kind of like old news because they've had to like you know download agents and have been using them for a while. But for most people like just even that graduation process like you know it needs to be explained and needs to be onboarded on on a very thoughtful way. And then for sure we definitely have seen like when because we've done tests with like different versions of the model and various model versions and continuously do those AB tests. You know the product experience is very very sensitive to model quality. It's very sensitive to how reliably the models can undergo these tasks, how reliably they communicate with the user about them, how reliably they like, you know, check back with the user if there's things that they require guidance on.

主持人：但你是怎么知道它已经准备好发布了？其中一部分相当数字化，就是我们设定了……你知道，你可以回头看看那个列着 100 多项内容的电子表格。Host: But how'd you know it was ready to be released? Part of it was was pretty numerical which is like we had set you know you go back to that spreadsheet of 100 plus things.

嘉宾：对于每一项，我们都设定了一个门槛：低于这个门槛就会阻碍发布，高于这个门槛则算达标。我们做过很多次检查点评估，有些结果是 80 项为绿、20 项为红。我们知道这还不够好。后来，我们有了第一个所有指标都呈绿灯的模型检查点，它是经过专门训练的 Musepark 1.3 版本。所以，一方面是非常量化的部分；另一方面则是实际体验——我们试用了这个模型，能看出它比我们之前反复迭代过的任何模型都好得多。回到你刚才提到的那七个月，当时有多少人在做这个产品？Guest: We had set for each of those rows what threshold is launch blocking and above what threshold is good. We had many checkpoints that like were like green on 80 of the rows but red on 20 of the rows. We knew that wasn't good enough. And we had our first model checkpoint which was green across the board which was a specially trained version of Musepark 1.3. So there was like the very numerical part of it and then there was just the experiential part which is we tried the model. We could tell that it was a lot better than than anything we had iterated with before. So going back to that seven-month period you were talking about, how many people were working on the product

主持人：模型工作、模型工作和产品工作之间呢？总共不到 200 人，我想这听起来可能很多，但在大公司里……Host: between the model work, model work and the product work? Like under 200 people total, which I guess sounds like a lot, but in big company land is

嘉宾：实际上小得多。Guest: it's actually a lot smaller.

主持人：人数并不多。回头看这件事、想想整个过程，还挺有意思的。我们当时就知道，这会是整个高管团队最看重的产品；大家都知道，这很可能是 Meta 今年推出的最重要产品之一。但我觉得，在组织层面，我们还是有所克制，确保负责这件事的是一支规模很小、专注度很高的团队，而没有让它膨胀成公司大批人马都参与其中的项目，因为我们知道，这是一件独特的艺术作品。要把它打磨成一种精美的体验，需要鲜明的观点和高度的专注。能再多说一点吗？Host: It's not very many. That was kind of cool looking back on this and thinking about it is like we knew this was going to be the most important product that the whole executive team, everyone knew that this was probably going to be one of the most important products that Meta would ship this year, but we had the restraint organizationally I think to make sure that like it was a really small focused team working on it and that it didn't balloon to this like oh you have like you know huge swasts of the company working on because we knew it was a single work of art. Like it required strong point of view and strong focus to like pull that through into one beautiful experience. Say more about

为什么优秀的产品需要一个统一的理念Why great products need a single point of view

这个。你为什么刚才把它说成一件完整的艺术作品，还说它需要一个统一的视角或观点？我觉得，对大型组织推出的产品的一种批评是——我觉得现在这甚至开始困扰很多 AI 实验室——它们会变成某种弗兰肯斯坦式的东西，几乎像克罗嫩伯格电影里的怪物，由许多不同人的观点、愿景和信念拼凑而成。从某种意义上说，这有点像 PM 地狱：每个 PM 都有一件想塞进产品里的东西，于是所有这些东西就这么混在一起，最后几乎成了一杯奶昔。作为用户和消费者，人们是能感觉到的：你能感觉出一个产品好像是很多不同的人做出来的，而且这些人显然各自有不同的目标，所以他们就把所有东西硬拼到了一起。this. Why did you just call it like a single piece of art and you need a single perspective or point of view? I think one um criticism of products that come from larger organizations and I think this like is even now starting to plague a lot of the AI labs is that they become kind of this Frankenstein almost like Croninberg amalgamation of a bunch of different people's points of view and visions and and beliefs and it's sort of like it's sort of PM hell in some sense where like every PM has like a thing that they're trying to get into the product and jam into the product and then all that kind of like blends together into this like like smoothie almost. People feel it as users and consumers like you feel you can feel when a product is just like it feels like lots of different people worked on it and there were like clearly different people who were gold differently so they just kind of like jammed it all together.

Muse 必须恰恰相反，也就是说，要有一个清晰明确的观点。我们想要带给世界的是一种连贯统一的体验。你这么说我很喜欢，而这纯属巧合。我不知道这段内容什么时候会发布，但我们是在史蒂夫·乔布斯逝世15周年当天录制的。想到一位在消费产品领域拥有鲜明统一观点的人，你显然会首先想到史蒂夫。我读过所有关于史蒂夫和苹果历史的书，也为我的另一档播客《Founders》做过大概15到20期关于他们的节目。不过，描述史蒂夫影响力时，我最喜欢的一句话是：“苹果不过是拥有一万个生命的史蒂夫·乔布斯。”这些产品体现了他的品味、他的视角、他的观点。Muse had to be the exact opposite, which is like there's one clear point of view. There is one cohesive experience that we're trying to deliver um to the world. I love that you said that and it just happens to be pure coincidence. Like we're I don't know when this is going to come out, but we're recording this on the 15th anniversary of Steve Jobs death. And when you think of somebody like a pro consumer products that had a single point of view, you obviously think of Steve first. I've read every single book on Steve and the history of Apple and I've done like I don't know 15 or 20 episodes on them uh for my other podcast founders, but one of my favorite lines to describe Steve's impact was it says that um Apple is just Steve Jobs with 10,000 lives. The products are to his taste, his perspective, his point of view.

他想在这个世界上看到的，正是最终用户得到的东西。在 Muse 的案例中，Nat Friedman 值得很多赞誉。比如，他的品味和感受力最终决定并塑造了这款产品的样子。What he wanted to see in the world is exactly what the the the end user got. In Muse's case, like Nat Friedman deserves a lot of credit. like his taste and sensibilities ultimately dictated and shaped what that product became.

主持人：你们会谈论有多少人在使用 Muse 吗？你们会公开讨论这个吗？Host: Do you talk about how many people are using Muse? Are you guys talking about this publicly or no?

嘉宾：我们说过用户有数百万，之后我还转发过其他人展示的图表，让人觉得 Muse 是有史以来增长最快的消费级应用，也就是有史以来增长最快的消费级 AI 应用。Guest: We have said millions and then I have retweeted other people who have shown graphs where we would imply that Muse is the fastest growing consumer app of all time. Consumer AI app of all time.

主持人：所以你还是不肯说个数字。Host: So you won't say a number though.

嘉宾：我们说的是几百万。是啊。不过，几百万也可能是几亿，那也算是几百万。所以，你只不过是没把开头那个……加上去。Guest: We've said millions. Yeah. Well, millions could be hundreds of millions. That's also millions. So, you're just not adding the the the beginning to

用梗图让 Meta 再次变酷Making Meta cool again with memes

那个。我想聊聊你最近有点……我是说，这么说是出于善意，你在 X 上简直有点失控。所以，你说的这些是你的营销策略吗？到底怎么回事？我觉得 Muse 发布之后，你公开发推的风格有了明显变化。你在干嘛？that. I want to like go into like you've been kind of going like uh and I mean this in a loving way like unhinged on X. So, you talk about like your is this like marketing strategy? Like what is going on? Like I feel like you're there's a distinct difference in your public tweeting since Muse launch. What are you doing?

主持人：这里发生的事情有几个方面。你当初创建 Scale 的时候，这肯定比做 Scale AI 有趣多了。肯定是这样。这个我们稍后再聊，不过过去几周肯定是我职业生涯中最有趣的一段时间之一，嗯，做产品的时候就是这样。我觉得这里有几件事正在发生。首先，我们觉得找到让 Muse 脱颖而出的方法很重要。回到刚才说的那种如洪流般不断涌来的更新吧。对大多数人来说，他们只是不断地被新的 AI 产品、初创公司、发布动态、各种东西和模型轰炸：又一个模型，又一个产品，又一个功能——简直就是一股汹涌不息的信息洪流。我们确实开过一些大型会议，团队一起讨论过这个问题。Host: There's a few pieces of what's happening here. This has got to be more fun than scale AI when you were building scale. It has to be. We'll talk about that later, but it has to be the past few weeks have been some of my most fun uh building like yeah certainly my career and I think there's a few things happening. So, one is it felt important that we figured out a way to make Muse break through. It's a pretty like torrential going back to this like this torrential stream of updates. Like for most people, there's just so they're just like constantly being like like kind of bombarded with new AI products and startups and releases and things and models and here's another model and here's another product and here's another feature and it's just like this torrential stream. We had actually meeting large meetings where we talked about this as a team.

感觉我们需要突破，而显然，Meta有很多分发渠道，我们可以确保每个人都知道这件事，但这还不足以让它以一种有趣、引人入胜的文化方式突破，让世界关注它。我生活中碰巧认识了一些做梗图的人，后来还和他们成了朋友。嗯，我亲昵地叫他们“精神分裂朋友”，他们就是那种真的整天都在琢磨网上的梗、研究网络迷因的人。我知道有些人对Muse着迷，也对你的X动态着迷，他们坚信你有一百个缪斯在不断想出可以用的梗图。嗯，结果发现你只是一群长期泡在网上的精神分裂朋友的朋友圈。It was like we need to break through and obviously like meta we have lots of distribution like we can make sure everyone knows about it but that's not enough to like make it break through in an interesting cultural or fascinating way for the world to kind of like you know pay attention to. I separately in my life have happened to have met and um become friends with like memers and and uh I have these uh I affectionately call them my skitso friends but but people who like literally they spend all their day like thinking about memes in the internet and and understanding that I have people that are obsessed with Muse and they're also obsessed with your X feed and they're convinced that you have like a hundred muses coming up with memes. to to be used. Um, turns out you just have a collection of schizophrenic friends that are terminally online.

嘉宾：X 信息流，顺便说一下，里面那些推文基本上全都是我写的。有那么一段时间，我开会时很难集中注意力，因为我总会突然想到一个梗，然后就会想：“天啊，我得赶紧把它发出去。”我会觉得那是灵感迸发的时刻。有一次，呃，我和一个同事一起吃饭，吃着吃着我突然说：“等等，我想明白了。”然后我就发了个不同的梗图。那感觉几乎就像我又变回了那个修 bug 的工程师，因为你知道，有些东西什么时候会豁然开朗，是能感觉出来的。不过，对，我们想突破的事情之一就是这个。还有一件我觉得很重要的事是：我们该怎么让 Meta 再次变酷？Guest: The X feed, just for what it's worth, is like literally every one of those tweets I write. There were like a few a quite a period where I was like, it was like really hard for me to pay attention in meetings because I would just like think of a meme and I'd be like, "Oh god, I have to get this out." And I would like it was like moments of inspiration. There was like um I was uh I was with one of my like I was trying to have like dinner with one of my co-workers and then during the dinner I was like wait I figured it out and then I like posted a different me. It was like it was almost I almost felt like I was like an engineer solving bugs again cuz it was like you know you could tell when something was going to click. But yeah so one things we wanted to break through. Another thing that like I just thought was important is like how do we make meta cool again?

因为就是，不知道为什么，尽管有 Instagram 和 Facebook 这种很棒的文化软件，嗯，Meta 在过去有段时间就是不酷，所以就想让 Meta 变得酷一点、有意思一点，还有点好笑。后来那种放飞自我的风格，算是随着时间推移自然而然形成的。Muse 刚推出时，我基本上只专注于推广自己看到的那些有意思的用法。我会转发几十条我看到的大家使用 Muse 的有趣案例。后来某个时候，因为我发推实在太多了，有几条推文我根本没怎么多想，就直接说了句“[ __ ]，发了算了”。结果其中有些推文表现特别好。你见过那个“花时间思考，然后爆款”的梗吗？你见过吗？cuz like for whatever reason despite having like these incredible pieces of cultural software um like Instagram and and uh Facebook historically meta was not cool for a while and so wanted to make meta cool and interesting and kind of like funny and then the unhingedness was something that happened kind of like naturally over time when Muse first came out I was just like mostly focused on promoting all the interesting use cases that I saw I was like retweeting like tens of interesting use cases that I saw of people using Muse. And then at some point it was like because I was just like tweeting so much. There were like a few tweets where I was just like didn't think that much about it and just said [ __ ] it post. And then some of those tweets like did really well. Have you seen this like time spent thinking about it and then banger you seen that?

很好。Great.

主持人：我还没看过，不过我同意。就像这些内容里有些我没花太多时间。我就把它们发到推特上了。几个小时都没看手机，后来一看就想：“哦，哇，那条效果真不错。”然后我就想起了互联网的一些特点。虽然不是特别有意为之，但我想起了互联网会奖励冒险，也会奖励惊喜，以及那些出乎人们意料的东西。于是我就这么一路发下去了。我有不少同事——我觉得他们多少有些惊讶——对于我发了一整周的梗图时，Nat说的那番话。他说：“你知道，我还以为我们会学到很多东西。”他在好几场会议上都这么说。他说：“我以为我们会学到很多关于 Muse 用户以及大家如何使用 Muse 的东西，但实际上，我们学到的却是很多关于 Alex 的想法。”Host: I haven't se but I agree with that. That's like I just some of these I didn't spend that much time on. I like tweeted them. I didn't even check my phone for a few hours and I was like, "Oh, wow. That one went really well." And then I kind of like remembered something about the internet which I it wasn't super intentional, but I remembered like the internet rewards risk and it rewards like surprise and like things that like people don't expect. And so then I just kind of like went off. A lot of my co-workers uh I think were somewhat surprised at uh something that um Nat said for for the whole week when I was posting all the memes. He was like, "You know, I thought we would learn." He said this like in a bunch of meetings. He was like, "I thought we were going to learn a lot about um you know, Muse users and like how people were using Muse, but actually like we're just learning a lot about Alex's mind."

这特别有意思。我感觉自己像是把这么多年来积累的互联网知识都调动起来，融入那些时刻里。我想，实际上吧，我也说不好，我们没有追踪数据，也很难判断，但我确实觉得这真的对增长产生了影响，这还挺好笑的。It was a lot of fun. I felt like I was drawing on all of my internet knowledge for years and years and years to like pull into those moments. And I think it actually, you know, I don't know, we don't have the tracking and it's like hard to tell, but I actually think it actually genuinely made an impact on grow growth, which is kind of hilarious.

嘉宾：我确实觉得它起作用了。我一直听到人们在聊这件事。而且，跟我聊起这件事的人也都下载了这款应用，现在正在用。还是回到你刚才说的话吧。就像是，嘿，我们有分发渠道，但这并不意味着我们就能做出一款人们愿意回来继续用、真正有黏性的产品。那么，你们在 Muse 上是怎么做到的？Guest: I definitely think it did. I I can't stop hearing about it. So, and all the people I'm hearing about it from also downloaded the app and are now using it. Go back to what you were saying though. It's like, hey, we have distribution, but that doesn't make mean that we can make something that people are going to come back to and actually sticky. So, like, how did you do this with Muse?

主持人：我觉得问题大概是，怎么把这个突破变成一款产品？我觉得这里面有几个方面，其中之一是，怎样让用户尽快体验到产品的魅力？怎样让用户尽早迎来使用产品时的惊艳时刻？我觉得这款产品天生就适合做到这一点，因为它是 AI，能力很多。如果有人从没用过 AI 智能体，那它能做的很多事都会让人惊讶。所以我觉得这是其中很重要的一部分。另一方面，我觉得是怎样利用人们经历这些惊艳时刻的故事，来帮助产品大放异彩、腾飞。Host: I think it was like, how do you make this into how do we how do we make this breakthrough as a product? And I think there were like a few parts of that, but I think one is how do you get people to a match the experience? Like how do you get someone to to a wow moment with the product as early as possible? And this product I think naturally lends itself to that because I think you know there's it's like it's AI. It can do a lot. It can there's like if if someone has never used an AI agent, there's a lot that it can do that will surprise you. So that I think was a big part of it. I think another part of it was like how do you harness all of those stories of people having these wow moments and like use those to help make the product sing and make the product fly.

主持人：不过，你们是怎么利用这些故事的？因为你们不是在给我投广告，对吧？Host: How are you using the stories though? Cuz you you guys aren't running ads for me, are you?

嘉宾：我们投了几条广告。说实话，我觉得一开始只是因为我会转发很多广告。就是我当时只是……Guest: We ran a few ads. I mean honestly like I think at first it was just the fact that I would retweet so many of them. Like I was just

主持人：每当我看到有人在新闻方面做了什么有意思的事，我就会转发引用推文。我不明白为什么 Anthropic 和 OpenAI 的广告都这么糟糕。记得 Anthropic 做过一场规模很大的户外宣传活动，整场活动都在讲他们自己。还有那个，呃，Chet 也是一样。他们会放个图标，我甚至觉得大家都认不出那是个 logo，然后上面就只写着“CEX”，画面里是两个人坐在桌前。我就想，这他妈是什么意思？你们明明有那么多使用场景。做广告只需要展示产品能带来的好处，就这样。Host: anytime I saw someone do something interesting about news I was like quote tweet. I couldn't understand why both Enthropic and OpenAI's um ads are so bad because remember Anthropic was doing this huge like outdoor campaign and it's all about them and same thing with um Chet. It's like they'd have like the the icon which I don't even think people recognize that as a logo and it just say CEX and just be two people sitting at a desk. I'm like what the [ __ ] does this mean? Where it's like you have all these use cases. All you have to do your ad is to show the benefit of your product. That's it.

嘉宾：你有好几百万个。把那些广告投出去。这真的、真的太基础了，有意思的是，人们一遍又一遍地犯这个错误。Guest: You have millions of them. Run those ads. It's it's so like elementary that it's interesting that people make this mistake over and over again.

主持人：对。我觉得，无论是在做新闻，还是一般地做东西时，我们反复想到的一件事就是：为什么别人会在乎？他们并不在乎你或你的公司。大家都是利己的。我记得有一本很老的书，叫《科学广告》，写于20世纪初。Host: Yeah. I think one thing that we came back to a lot in in both building news as well as just like building stuff in general at me was just like why would someone care? They don't care about you or your company. They care about everybody's self-interested. This is like I'm there's this very old book. It's called Scientific Advertising. It was written in the early 1900s.

这东西当时非常有价值：那位在20世纪20年代和30年代作为广告公司创始人赚得最多的人，写下了这些内容。作者是一个叫霍普金斯的人，他是最优秀的文案撰稿人。他说：“这些就是我赚钱的所有点子。我要把这份手稿锁进保险箱里20年。”不过，归根结底，这些内容讲的不是广告，而是人性，而人性不会改变。他的核心观点是：你的广告总是在讲你自己、讲你的产品，就像在说“嘿，我有这个东西，买吧”。但人们并不在意这些，他们只关心自己。你只需要做一件事：说明这个东西能为他们做什么，并以此作为开场。后来有人借鉴了这些写于20世纪初的想法，并在20世纪50年代、60年代、70年代乃至今天，创立了规模庞大的公司和广告公司。is now it was so valuable that the guy that made the most money as an advertising agency founder in the like 1920s and 30s he it was written by this guy named Hopkins who was this best copyriter he's like these are all the ideas how I'm making this money I'm putting this manuscript in a safe for 20 years right but essentially it's not about advertising it's about human nature which doesn't change and his whole point was just like your ads are about you your ads about your product your ads are like hey I have this thing buy people don't care about that they're self-interested and if you just all you have to do is just do the work of what this does if for you and you just lead with that and there's people that took that ideas those ideas were written in the early 1900s and went on to build massive companies advertising agency foundations in the ' 50s ' 60s7s and even to this day

嘉宾：是啊，百分之百。我觉得这里面有几个启发。首先，世界上大多数人根本不在乎 OpenAI、研究，或者你知道的那些其他公司、那些研究，甚至也不在乎我们、我们的研究之类的。他们在乎的是它能为自己做什么。我们有幸得到了这个吉祥物——那个乐呵呵的小家伙。我记得那条推文，我当时意识到：“哦，哇，这形象可太有发挥空间了。”因为我当时正开车去上班，路上我生成了一个他提着公文包的版本，然后发了条推文：“当我周一去上班时的表情。”我记得自己当时觉得，这算是我最近发得最好的推文之一。后来我才意识到，你可以把他放进很多不同的情境里。在经历这个过程时，我有一点逐渐意识到：你要怎样才能创造出令人惊喜的时刻，让它和你见过的其他任何产品营销都截然不同？Guest: yeah 100%. I think there are a few insights. Let's say first is most people in the world, they don't give a [ __ ] about like OpenAI or the research or you know these other companies or the research or even us or our research or whatever. They care about like what it can do for them. We had this gift of the mascot which was the little jolly guy. I remember the tweet where I where I realized I was like, "Oh, wow. This is mileage." because I was basically I was um I was driving into work uh and while I was on the way I like generated a a version of the guy holding a briefcase and I tweeted MFW I go to work on Monday. I remember thinking like this is like one of my best tweets in a while and then I kind of realized like you can put him into a lot of situations. One thing I like kind of realized as we were going through that process was like how do you create surprising moments that are very different from any other marketing that you've seen of like a product.

我不太记得上次有人像你知道的那样，借助有点擦边的梗图来推广产品是什么时候了。嗯，我其实不知道以前有没有人这么做过，但我有点意识到，哦，天哪，我们可以用这个小家伙来做这种事。这个挺有意思的，也能勾起普通人的好奇心……I don't like really remember the last time someone like you know leaned into racy memes to like market a product. Um I don't actually know if it's been done before but I kind of like realize like oh wow this is like a thing that we can do with this little guy. And that's something that like is interesting. That's something that like drives intrigue to like the average

与 AI 智能体建立信任Building trust with AI agents

人。person.

主持人：好的。但这或许能提高他们的认知，甚至让他们下载应用。可等应用装到他们手机上之后，你要怎么让他们持续参与？那些真正喜欢这款应用的人，会经历这样一个循环——我们二月份也有过这种体验：你试着交给它一个小任务，它就完成了。你会想：“哦，哇，它做到了。”然后你再试着给它一点东西，比如稍微多一点的任务，它又完成了，你就会想：“哦，哇，它还能做到这个。它能做刚才那件事，也能做第二件事。”然后你再给它一个稍微大一点的问题。这有点像你和一个 AI 智能体之间的信任背摔：一开始你其实不太信任它，但又有点好奇。Host: Okay. But that might get them raise awareness, might even get them to download the app. But then how do you get them to stay engaged once the app is they the app is on their phone? There's a cycle that people who who really love the app and and we even like we back in February had which is you try to give it a little thing and it does it. You're like, "Oh, wow. It did that." And then you try to give it a little bit something like a little bit more and then it does it and you're like, "Oh, wow. It can do that. It could do that first thing. It could do the second thing." And then you give it like a little bit bigger of a of a problem. And it's kind of this like trust fall almost that you have with an AI agent, which is at first you like don't really trust it, but you're like kind of intrigued.

所以你要先让它小试一下，然后再给它稍微大一点的任务，再大一点，再大一点。当然，我跟大学生之类的人聊天时，会发现有些人使用 AI 的方式简直就是完全的信任跳伞。他们只是录下语音备忘录，把脑子里的想法一股脑倒给 AI，然后发出去，接着就完全相信 AI 会整理好所有想法，给他们清晰的计划，以及明确的待办事项等等。我觉得，对 Muse 的成功用户来说，关键确实是让他们逐步进入这种信任跳伞的过程，让他们把越来越大的任务交给它，而且每次它都能做好。我读《从0到1》时，发现了一句我有史以来最喜欢的名言。So you're going to give it a little bit nibble and then you give it like something a little bigger and something a little bigger and something a little bigger. Certainly like when I talk to like college students or whatever like some of the ways that people use AI it's like a full trust fault. They just like are recording voice notes and brain dumping to the AI and they send it and then they just trust the AI to like organize all the thoughts and give them like clear plans and think clear things to do etc. I think for the successful users of Muse it really is like getting them onto this trust fall process of using it for slightly bigger and bigger and bigger things and then having it work every one of those times. I found one of my all-time favorite quotes when I was reading the book 0ero to1.

引文中写道：“我观察到的最强大的一种模式是，成功人士能在意想不到的地方发现价值。”他们之所以能做到这一点，是因为他们从第一性原理出发思考业务，而不是照搬公式。Apploven 正是这样打造其广告平台的。Apploven 帮你触达超过十亿潜在的新客户，这些客户都在移动游戏中。Apploven 让你能够获得用户毫无分心的注意力。Apploven 的广告是全屏视频，平均观看时长为 35 秒。这样的用户留存表现远胜其他广告平台。你还可以在几分钟内启动 Apploven。设定目标，Apploven 就会帮你实现。无需复杂设置，也不需要专业知识。Apploven 还能迅速扩大规模，向超过十亿潜在客户展示你的广告。其他企业已经看到立竿见影的成效：每日广告支出扩大到数十万美元，营收增加了数百万美元。The quote says, "The single most powerful pattern I have noticed is that successful people find value in unexpected places." And they do this by thinking about business from first principles instead of formulas. That is exactly what Apploven has done with their advertising platform. Apploven connects you with over a billion potential new customers in mobile games. Apploven allows you to capture undivided attention. Apploving ads are full screen videos that are watched for an average of 35 seconds. That is retention that blows other ad platforms out of the water. And you can launch on Apploven in minutes. You set the goal and Apploven achieves it. No complex setup, no expertise needed. And Apploven scales quickly. They can put your ads in front of over a billion potential customers. Other businesses have seen immediate results scale to hundreds of thousands of dollars of spend per day and increase their revenue by millions.

所以，你想趁竞争对手还没都上 AppLoven，赶紧抢先开始。你可以去 apploven.com。没错，就是 apploven.com。我很好奇，这里面有多少真的是靠口碑传播带起来的。显然，既然要跟你聊，我无论如何都得下载这个应用。但真正引起我兴趣的是，有个朋友给我发了几张截图，展示他是怎么用 Muse 的。你下载这个应用的时候，它其实不会告诉你太多能做些什么。它有点像一个开放式的文本框，你懂吧？不过，我有个朋友经营着一家市值一千亿美元的公司，他把身份证落在了一架 Flexjet 上，然后他就跟我说：“好吧，我想要……告诉我，我完全不想参与这个过程。你得想办法找到这张身份证，去把它取回来。它现在在这里，我人在这里，然后你得把中间所有步骤都安排好。”接着他们就安排了快递员，去了那里，不知道怎么就通过了他办公室的安保，还上楼到了他的办公室。然后我就想，卧槽，这真是最棒的营销了。So, you want to get started quickly before all of your competitors are on AppLoven. And you can do that by going to apploven.com. That's apploven.com. I wonder how much of this is actually driven by word of mouth. So, obviously talking to you, I was going to have to download the app no matter what. But what really piqued my interest is a friend of mine was sending me screenshots of how he was using Muse. So, like when you download the app, it's it doesn't really tell you like too much of like what you can do. It was kind of like open-ended like a you know like a open text box but a friend of mine who's running like a hundred billion dollar company he left his ID on a flexjet and then he went through and he's just like well I want to he tell me I don't want to be involved in this process at all you have to figure out how to get the ID that like go pick up the ID this is where it's at and then this is where I'm at and then figure out all the steps along the way and then like arranged the courier went there got to his security in his office somehow and got upstairs to his office like and it was like holy [ __ ] this is the best marketing.

就是三四张 Muse 来回交流的截图，他说：“我不想参与。你什么都得自己做。”然后它一路上自己摸索出来。对。你知道，这其实是……嗯，我不知道这算不算有点刻意，但现代产品营销确实非常依赖截图。我觉得，要做一款现代消费级产品，它就得在截图里表现出色。也就是说，截图得能在群聊、口碑传播或者网络上迅速传开。我觉得这一直是其中很重要的一部分。这不是我们刻意为之，也不是精心设计出来的，但我觉得截图里有那个小家伙这件事很重要，因为我觉得截图里只要有 Jolly，或者你的 Muse 是谁，一眼就能看出这是 Muse 的截图。It's just three or four screenshots of Muse going back and forth and him saying, "I don't want to be involved. You have to do everything." And it figuring out on the way. Yeah. Know, this is actually one of the things about um uh I don't know how it was like somewhat intentional, but definitely like modern product marketing is like very screenshot driven. Like I think to have a modern consumer product like it has to work on the screenshot. like the screenshot has to has to fly so to speak either through like group chats or word of mouth or like online. And I think that's been a big part of it. This wasn't intentional or engineered, but I think the fact that we had the little guy in the screenshot is like was a big deal because I think having Jolly or whoever your muse is like in the screenshot immediately communicates this is a Muse screenshot.

这简直就是你能做出的最好的营销。It's just like the best marketing you could possibly have.

人类抱负的未来The future of human ambition

那么，你是不是整天都在用 Muse？你个人平时是怎么使用它的？So, are you on your Muse like all day long? like what is your own personal usage?

嘉宾：我主要喜欢用它设置很多工作流，然后，嗯，我想我很多时候开会也会用它。不过，嗯，实际上，我觉得在我的工作中，所谓的职责就是要专心、保持投入，并与人互动。我设置了一大堆工作流，某种程度上把它当成了第二大脑。Guest: I mostly like set up a lot of workflows using it and then I um I guess my meetings a lot of the time but um so in practice like I think in my job quoteunquote I'm supposed to like pay attention and and be pretty present and interact with people. I set up a bunch of workflows and like kind of treated as like a second brain.

主持人：是的。你在自己写的那篇帖子里提到了这一点，帖子特别短。我记得上次看到时，浏览量已经有五百五十万左右了。不过你说，我很喜欢你描述 Muse 的方式：仿佛每个人除了自己的头脑之外，还有另一个头脑。我觉得从哲学角度来说，这是关于拥有强大 AI 后“做人意味着什么”、人与 AI 的关系会是什么样，以及这种关系究竟会如何呈现的最有趣的问题之一。不同的人对这种关系的具体样貌有不同看法。我想，显而易见的那些令人担忧的情况，就是 AI 凌驾于我们之上，而我们只是在照着它们的方式行事；当然，也可能存在其他世界，那里的关系并不一样。在你继续说之前，我想问问你个人的看法是什么？Host: Yeah. You said that in the post that you wrote and it was like really short and I think I saw last time it was like 5 and a half million views so far but you said uh I love how you describe Muse like well if everyone had a second mind beyond their own. I think this is philosophically speaking one of the most interesting questions about like what does it mean to be human when you have like powerful AI and what is that relationship like and and how exactly does that look and different people have different takes on what exactly that looks like. I think the sort of like fear cases obviously that you know AI is above us and that we're just sort of like doing what they do and there's like other worlds where that relationship is different. And before you go on, what is your own personal view though?

嘉宾：我真的相信 Muse。我相信个人智能体会成为一种长期的形态，因为人类天生就有各种需求、欲望和梦想。我认为，像 AI 和 Muse 这样的个人智能体，会成为帮助我们实现这些目标、并不断继续实现它们的机制和桥梁。然后人类就会拥有越来越宏大的梦想。孩子们会梦想拥有自己的恒星系什么的，而 Muse 会帮他们实现这些梦想。比如，贝索斯在一封股东信里写过一段话——嗯，我记得是这样——消费者美妙之处在于，他们总是美妙地感到不满足，或者说，对现有的选择美妙地不满意之类的。这就是我们与 AI 之间关系的一种模式。Guest: I really believe in muse. I believe in the personal agent as like a long-term form factor of just it is human nature to have wants and desires and dreams. And I think like AI and personal agents like muse will be the mechanism and the bridge that enables us to accomplish those things and continue accomplishing them. And then like humans will dream bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. Kids will dream of like having their own star systems or whatever. And like Muse will help them do that. Like there's this thing that like um Bezos uh wrote in like well I think it was one of his shareholder letters which is like the beautiful thing about uh consumers is that they're like always beautifully unhappy or something like that or like beautifully unsatisfied with the options they have. That is like one modality of our relationship with AI.

我认为还有其他模态。我觉得，AI 会越来越多地参与科学发现的过程。AI 也会越来越多地融入经济的各个领域，但我确实相信，长期来看，这种模式、这种形态会是每个人都拥有一个支持自己、帮助自己实现所想的 AI。所以你觉得，AI 某种程度上是在消除生活中所有那些繁琐的事情，对吧？就是那些我们不想做的事。我记得你在那篇文章里说过类似这样的话：世界充满了把关者和障碍，而 Muse 能帮你绕开这些，不再占用你的时间，这样你就能真正专注于自己想做的事。我觉得 Muse 能让每个人都拥有他们儿时梦想中的成年生活。每个人小时候都有宏大的想法和梦想；他们想象自己的人生时，会在脑海中把它大致演绎出来。I think that there's other modalities like I think that AI will start doing more and more of the scientific discovery process. I think AIs will start inserting more and more into various parts of the economy, but I do believe in this mod in this like form factor long term of everyone having an AI that supports them and what they want. So you see AI as kind of like removing all like the cludge of life, right? The stuff that we don't want to do. I think in the the piece you said something like the world is full of like gatekeepers and obstacles and like Muse can get around this for you without spending any more of your time so you can actually focus on the stuff you want to do. I think Muse can give everyone the adulthood they dreamed of in childhood. Everyone when they're kids, they have like big ideas and big dreams and when they like imagine their life and they sort of like, you know, play it out.

他们，他们想象着这样一种人生：可以成为宇航员，可以拯救地球，可以改变世界，或者，你懂的，做任何可能的事。他们胸怀大志，可是，出于各种各样的原因，等到人们毕业、步入职场，再到他们已经工作了一段时间时，所有的希望、抱负和梦想能力，仿佛都被榨干了。They they imagine this life where they can like be an astronaut or they can save the planet or they can change the world or, you know, whatever it might be. It's like a big they they think big and then for, you know, a variety of reasons by the time people finish school, they enter the workforce, by the time they get to their, you know, have been in a job for a while, it's that like all that hope and ambition and and ability to dream has been sucked out of them.

主持人：不是，他们的生命力已经被打没了。他们的生命力被打没了。我觉得作为成年人，我们似乎不太会意识到，或者说不太懂得欣赏，我们其实全都像僵尸一样。我们失去了自主性，我觉得“抱负”这个词很贴切。广义上说，AI 的承诺之一，我觉得像 Muse 这样的产品也是如此，就是从你还是孩子的时候起，就让这股劲儿一直延续下去。比如你还是个孩子，怀揣着远大的梦想，用 AI 帮你实现那些梦想。然后，再去做更大的梦，再把它们变成现实；接着做更大的梦，再把它们变成现实。这样一来，你就能在一生中体验到自主性不断提升，就像乘坐一部自主性不断上升的扶梯，而不是一开始自主性很强，后来却被彻底压垮。你刚才说话的时候，我在想一件事，你知道是什么吗？Host: No, it's been beaten out of them. The life is beaten beaten out of them. I think as adults, I don't think we like just like appreciate the degree to which we're all zombies. We lost our agency and we lost our I think ambition is really a good word for it. One of the promises of AI broadly speaking and I think through products like Muse is to um keep it going from when you're a kid. Like you're a kid, you have big dreams, use AI, help make those things happen. Then like dream bigger, make those things happen, dream bigger, make those things happen. and kind of like experience this like escalator of agency, an increase in agency throughout your life versus a sort of like you have lots of agency and then it gets like crushed. You know what I was thinking of when you were speaking just now?

你之前提到过，你和 Nat Freeman 经历过这么一件事：AI 像是一波接一波地对你进行某种令人不安的心理审视。那如果也有这样的经历，但结果正好和你说的相反呢？它实际上让你更有自信，让你明白世界是可以改变的；只要你足够用力地推动它，以足够的能量和动力去追求，就真的能改变你周围的世界。You you mentioned earlier this this experience that you and Nat Freeman went through where you had this like disturbing uh psychological audit and like coming in waves from this AI. It's like yeah, what if we had that but it's like the opposite of what you're saying. It's like actually gave you more self-confidence like gave you understanding like the world is malleable and if you push on it hard enough you go after it with enough energy and drive you can actually change it around you.

嘉宾：是啊。我觉得这确实是最令人印象深刻的创业者所展现的一种特质：他们敢于梦想远大，实现之后又把梦想定得更大；然后也许会为此努力十年，但如果实现了，就再去追求更大的梦想。埃隆显然就是很好的例子。我觉得马克也是很好的例子。很多标志性的创业者，他们的人生经历大概都是如此。我觉得每个人都应该有这样一种可能性。让我觉得有些悲哀的是，大多数人原本有更大的梦想和宏大的想法，可进入企业职场后，就渐渐变得像行尸走肉。也许某个时候，他们想去追逐梦想，但那时真的非常非常难，因为已经背负了太多责任。Guest: Yeah. I think this is something that like certainly the most impressive entrepreneurs exhibit which is like I think they like dream big they accomplish that then they dream bigger and then maybe they work on that for like a decade but then like you know if they accomplish that then they dream bigger. Like Elon is obviously a great example of this. Um I think Mark is a great example of this. I think but I think a lot of like the iconic entrepreneurs this is like like kind of like their lived experience and I think there's a version of that that should be true for every person and I think what's kind of like tragic is I think for most people you have like bigger dreams big ideas you enter the corporate workforce you're you kind of become a zombie maybe at some point you want to go tackle your dreams but then it's like really really hard cuz you all these commitments.

你或许有家庭，或许有别的什么。就像你几乎会陷入那种僵尸般的状态。关于 miuse，我还有一件事想说，然后我想谈谈 Scale AI，以及你与 Meta 达成的合作，还有你当时做出那个决定的过程。不过，在你写的那篇文章——或者说那篇短帖——里，有句话我特别喜欢。你写道：“迄今为止，世界一直由少数狂热者塑造，他们不知怎么找到了让自己的愿望成真的办法；但我们从未见过每个人的主体能动性都被充分激发的人类。”我认为，我所描述的这个世界的希望在于，每个人一生中的主体能动性都会不断增强，并且都能实现自己的愿望和梦想。You maybe you have a family, maybe you have whatever it is. It's just like it's almost you become trapped in the sort of like zombiehood. There's one more thing on miuse before I want to get to scale AI and like the the partnership that you do that you did with Meta and making that decision. But in this essay that you wrote or this like short postage you wrote, I love what you said. said, "The world until now has been shaped by the small number of fanatics who have somehow found a way to make their wants real, but we've never seen humanity with every single person's agency fully switched on." I think the promise of this world that I'm describing where every single person has this like agency increase throughout their lifetime and they have the ability to accomplish their wants and their dreams.

我觉得那个世界看起来会疯狂得很棒。我觉得它会非常有趣，会很有艺术感、很酷，你会进入世界的不同角落，那里会非常多元。想到这到底会是什么样子，简直有点疯狂：数十亿人会因为智能变得充裕，突然拥有创造惊人事物的资源。我觉得这就是它的愿景之一。在我脑海里，这几乎就像《瑞克和莫蒂》里的跨维度电视节目，只不过不知怎么就变成了人类现实中的东西。那可能会特别棒。所以我一直想起那个节目里的一句台词，大意是“宇宙会吞噬聪明人”。I think that world looks crazy in a very good way. Like I think it will be very interesting. It'll be artistic and cool and you'll like go into different pockets of the world and it will be very like diverse. It'll be kind of insane to think about what exactly that looks like where literally billions of people have, you know, all of a sudden because of abundant intelligence like the resources to make incredible things happen. I think that's part of the promise. Like I think in my head it's almost like the Rick and Morty interdimensional cable but but just like somehow manifested into like reality for humans. Like it could just be really awesome. So I keep hearing uh this line from that show where it's like the universe eats smart people.

马克·扎克伯格的那通电话改变了一切The call from Mark Zuckerberg that changed everything

主持人：嗯，好吧，我想回到前面。我个人好奇的是，你创立了 Scale AI，也在运营 Scale AI，然后有一天马克·扎克伯格联系你，说：“嘿——”我猜他说的是：“嘿，我想聊聊。你能跟我讲讲这个吗？”Host: Um okay so I want to go back. What I'm personally curious uh about is you're you founded Scale AI, you're running Scale AI, and then one day Mark Zuckerberg reaches out and says, "Hey," I assume he says, "Hey, I want to talk. Can you tell me about this?"

嘉宾：是的，我想具体的话，对方大概是这么说的：“嘿，你有时间通个电话吗？”Guest: Yeah, I think the exact message was something like, "Hey, do you have time for a call?"

主持人：你之前和马克有过交往吗？和他相处过一段时间吗？比如说，那背后的情况是怎样的？我有个朋友，呃，叫 Alex Schultz，我其实认识他很多很多年了，从 Scale 还只有大概一岁的时候就认识了。我在旧金山认识他的。他现在是 Meta 的首席数据官，之前长期担任 Meta 高管、是马克的得力干将。他把我介绍给马克，我想大概是在 2021 年或 2022 年，聊聊 AI，因为我觉得那时候马克对 AI 的兴趣越来越浓了。我们当时在 AI 领域做了很多事情。我的印象是，安排第一次会面好像花了一年时间。也就是说，从介绍到约好见面，我觉得整整花了一年。为什么呢？马克的日程安排显然紧得离谱，而且要处理的事情多得数不清。Host: Did you have a relationship with Mark previously? Did you spend any time with him? Like what was what's the background there? I had a friend who uh this guy Alex Schultz uh who I've known actually for many many years um from when scale was maybe a year old. I met him in San Francisco is currently the chief data officer at Meta but was longtime Meta executive lieutenant and he introduced me to Mark I want to say in about like I think it was 2021 or 2022 to talk about AI because I think at that time Mark was getting a lot more interested in AI scale. We were doing a lot of stuff in AI. My memory is that I think it took like 1 year to schedule that first meeting. Like from from the intro to the meeting being scheduled, I think it was like a full year. Why? Mark obviously has like an insane calendar and like has like a bajillion different things to deal with.

而且他也非常擅长排定优先级。比如，他会花很多时间在那些从某些方面来说真的非常非常重要的事情上——甚至会在这些事情上花太多时间。他之所以能做到这一点，同时又当个好爸爸、好伴侣，还兼顾其他事情，唯一的办法就是毫不留情地排定优先级。那之后我跟他聊过几次，也以创始人的身份向他请教过。能得到像马克·扎克伯格这样的大人物的建议，显然是件非常了不起的事。嗯，我还记得那时候，我在 WhatsApp 上问他一个问题，他就会写下很长很长的回复，我当时特别困惑，心想：“他哪有时间写这么长的回复？”但现在我才意识到，他只是打字速度特别快，而且写起 WhatsApp 消息来非常严谨。And he's also very good at prioritization. Like he will spend a lot of time on the things that are really really important in some ways like too much time on the things that are like really really important. the only way he's able to do that and like be a good dad and be a good partner and all this other stuff is to just like ruthlessly prioritize. I had spoken to him a few times kind of after that and had gotten his advice as a founder to get advice from you know Mark Zuckerberg obviously like a really big deal. Um and I actually remember at that time like he he wrote these like like I would ask him a question on WhatsApp and then he would write these like really long responses and I was really confused. I was like, how does he have time to write these like really long responses? But now I realize he like is just like really fast and rigorous at writing to like a lot of WhatsApp messages.

他写东西时能非常迅速地写出一篇严谨而且篇幅很长的答复。这是他一项非常了不起的本领。He'll write like write a very rigorous like long response very quickly. It's like a very impressive skill of his.

嘉宾：让你一窥他心中所想。Guest: Gives you a sneak peek in what's going on his mind.

主持人：是的。比如说，确实存在竞争。Meta 是 Scale 的重要客户。嗯，我想说，在这件事发生之前，我们大概每六个月左右才聊一次。也许这就是我们互动的频率。然后，嗯，我记得他打了电话过来。我觉得其实一开始并不清楚最终会谈到什么，因为第一次谈话只是，你知道，那是在 Llama 4 发布之后，基本上就是在问：“你觉得我们应该做什么？”为什么说这次谈话是在 Llama 4 发布之后这一点很重要？Host: Yeah. Like yeah, there's racing. Meta was a important customer of scale. Um, and I would say like prior to this instance, maybe we spoke once every like six months or so. Maybe that was like the cadence of our interactions. And then yeah, I think he he had called and I think it was it was actually like not obvious at first what the like end point was going to be because the first conversation was just like, you know, this was after Llama 4 and it was kind of just like asking what do you think we should be doing? Why is that an important point that this is this conversation is happening after Llama 4?

嘉宾：Llama 4 的发展轨迹并不是 Meta 作为一家公司所希望的那样。我觉得从内部来说，它确实令人失望；而且当时 AI 显然正变得越来越重要。很明显，AI 对 Meta 的未来至关重要。所以，最初几次交谈时，我们是通过电话聊的，他似乎是在征求建议，比如问：“你觉得我们应该做些什么？你觉得我们应该把重点放在哪里？”Guest: Llama 4 was not on the trajectory that Meta wanted as a company. It definitely was like I think internally speaking a disappointment and it was also at a time where AI was clearly becoming just like increasingly increasingly important. It was clear that AI was going to be like really critical to the future of meta. So yeah the first few conversations we spoke on the phone and he was sort of as saying you know asking for advice on like what do you think we should be doing? What do you think we should be focused on?

我私下听说过他这方面的事：他有个特别厉害的做法——不是正式的董事会，也不是像 Meta 那样的董事会，虽然董事会里也有些人，他会这样向他们请教——而是身边有一群世界级的创业者。我跟其中一些人聊过，你根本想不到，他总是不断向大家征求建议。他会联系我们，说：“这是我生活中正在发生的事，或者工作上的事，你们会怎么做？”然后一遍又一遍地这么做。我觉得这是个相当令人钦佩的特质，是的，因为这显然需要谦逊——即使在他已经取得了那么多令人难以置信的成就之后，仍然继续这么做。我的意思是，从他第一次联系我到我们宣布这笔交易，整个过程也就五六个星期。This is what I've heard about him privately that he has this insane it's not a board of directors like a meta board although there's some people on the board that he also does this with but he's got this group of world-class entrepreneurs around him and I've spoken to some of them like you don't understand like he asked for advice constantly he's like hitting us up he's like here's what's going on in my life or the work would you do and he'll do that over and over and over again I think this is like quite an impressive trait yes because it takes humility obviously like continue doing that even you know after all the incredible things that, you know, he's been able to accomplish. I mean, the whole, you know, timeline from when he first reached out to when we announced the deal was like five, six weeks.

真的挺快的。世界级创业者还有一个共同点。我们曾在这档播客上邀请过 Grock 的创始人 Jonathan Ross。他第一次公开谈到自己与 Nvidia 达成的 200 亿美元交易，就是在这档节目上。他说：“从 Jensen 第一次打电话，到钱进我的银行账户，只用了 3 周。”Like, it was like pretty quick. Another thing that world-class entrepreneurs have in common. We had Jonathan Ross, the founder of Grock, on this podcast. The first time we ever spoke uh publicly about the $20 billion deal he did with Nvidia was on the show. And he's like, "From the time first call from Jensen to money's in my bank account was 3 weeks."

主持人：是啊，太棒了。嗯，我当时有很多想法，比如如果我选择加入，我会做些什么，以及我会如何思考 Meta 的 AI 战略。我最先说的一件事，就是我之前提到的：嘿，我其实觉得，Meta 从传统上来说一直专注于人们想做的事情，因此在 AI 带来的这场巨大变革中，它其实是最具独特优势的公司之一。我有很多很多想法，陆续发给了他。与此同时，我们也在进行另一场对话，大意是：“哦，对，也许我们应该考虑一下，看看有没有合作的可能。”Host: Yeah. That's amazing. Um, I just had lots of ideas on like what I'd be doing if I choose and like how I'd be thinking about Meta's AI strategy. One of the first things I said was what I said earlier, which is like, hey, I actually think because Meta is like heritage wise focus on the things that people want to do is actually one of the most specially placed companies with this incredible shift AI. I like had lots and lots of ideas that I sort of sent his way and then that was kind of this like conversation happening in parallel with this like oh yeah maybe we should potentially consider if there's a way to work together.

嘉宾：所以他这么说的时候，你怎么想？因为这个孩子……这对你来说是无法预料的。Guest: So when he says that what do you think cuz this kid you this was not predictable to you.

主持人：无法预测。不是。当时整个事情就像是……就像是一连串特别疯狂的事。我当时就想：“哦，那不错，但这不可能……”Host: Not predictable. No. The whole thing was like it was like a really crazy um sequence at the time. I was just like, "Oh, that's nice, but like there's no way that

嘉宾：你知道他们这么说是什么意思，对吧？他们想收买你。每次都一样，但他们会说：“哦，我们得想办法合作。”Guest: Well, you know what that means when they say that, right? They want to buy you. It's always the same thing, but they say it's like, "Oh, we got to find a way to work together."

主持人：是啊。我觉得当时我没接受过那种、那种指导。当时我明确有过的一种感觉是：“是啊，这可能根本就没那么说得通。”我想我当时个人的想法是：“是啊，你知道，他可能是在试探着提这件事，或者把它抛出来，但这真的有那么说得通吗？”Host: Yeah. I don't think I'd had that that kind of coaching at the at the time. One thing that I explicitly felt at the time was like, "Yeah, like it probably doesn't make that much sense even." Like I think I personally was like, "Yeah, like you know, maybe he's like, you know, teasing it or or like throwing it out there, but like does he even like make that much sense?"

主持人：你为什么觉得这说不通？Host: Why wouldn't you think it makes sense?

嘉宾：我的意思是，显然最后还是谈成了一笔交易，所以你知道，我又懂什么呢？不过，嗯……Guest: I mean, obviously like a deal ended up happening, so you know, what do I know? But um

主持人：不，不，不过在当时，不是说我们知道发生了什么，而是我很好奇，你经历这一切时是怎么想的。比如你说：“哦，对，你说过这就像……这说不通。”为什么会说不通呢？Host: No, no, but back then, not we know what happened, but like I'm very curious your thinking as you're going experiencing this like the fact that you said, "Oh, yeah, you said this was like that doesn't make sense." Like why wouldn't it make sense?

嘉宾：退一步来看。显然，Meta 最具标志性的收购就是 Instagram 和 WhatsApp，这些都是逻辑非常清晰、由产品驱动的决策。Scale 的业务，比如深耕企业和政府客户销售，和 Meta 完全是另一种类型的业务。所以，我当时认为合理的逻辑是：如果 Meta 想进入那些领域，那么我觉得这或许就是合理的产业逻辑。但这次并不是这样，因为我认为马克显然主要感兴趣的是拿下 Llama 项目，并推动他的整体 AI 项目……Guest: Taking a step back. Obviously the the like iconic meta acquisitions have been Instagram and WhatsApp and these were like very clear you know product logic driven decisions. Scale is like you know a deep enterprise government sales like you know a entirely different kind of business from from Meta. And so the the logic that I had thought at the time would have made sense is if meta wanted to get into those things that then I think you know like you know maybe that's that's the industrial logic that would have made sense but this wasn't that cuz I think Mark clearly was like predominantly interested in getting the llama program and over his overall AI program on

主持人：他想要人才。Host: he wanted talent.

嘉宾：是啊，他想要人才。整个过程一直都有些遮遮掩掩、含糊不清的，你知道，大多数时候都是这样。Guest: Yeah he wanted talent. It was kind of shrouded and unclear the whole time, you know, a lot of the way.

主持人：是什么时候开始变得明朗的？钱到账之后，呃，你知道，我们开始谈具体数字的时候，我就想：“哦，哇。好吧。行。”嗯，那时候事情就变得更明朗了。Host: When did it become clear? After the money hit the account when, you know, when we started talking numbers, I was like, "Oh, wow. Okay. All right." Um, that's when things became like more clear.

主持人：一开始你会觉得：“哦，这个……这个说得通。”然后你们继续聊。他花了多久就说服你相信这对你来说是条不错的路？Host: At first, you're like, "Oh, this this will make sense." Then you guys keep talking. And how fast did he convince you like this is a good path for you?

离开 Scale AI 加入 MetaLeaving Scale AI for Meta

主持人：其中有一部分就是， “哇，这交易结构真是太有意思了。”最终我们敲定了这样一笔交易：Meta 投资并持有 Scale 49% 的股份，Scale 继续运营。我和几个人加入 Meta。当时我有点难以置信的是，这种交易方式实在太奇怪了，但我觉得它确实可以说是一个非常有意思的三赢局面。Scale 的股东赢了，因为所有股东都得到了很好的交易，获益颇多。Scale 也能继续发展，而且我真心相信，Scale 最好的日子还在前头。我想问你，或者说我个人很好奇的是：他能跟你解释清楚，让你在一通电话里就改变看法吗？还是你会觉得：“等等，马克，我得想想，这也太他妈疯狂了。”Host: There was a part of it was just like, "Wow, this is like a really fascinating deal construct." We ultimately landed on this deal where you know Meta invested uh owns 49% of scale scale continues. Myself and a few people join join Meta. What I was kind of incredulous about at the time was like it's such a weird kind of deal but is one that I think genuinely kind of was like this very interesting winwin win so to speak. There's a win for the shareholders of scale because all shareholders of scale got a great deal, benefited a lot. Scale continues and I truly believe the best days of scale are ahead of it. My question to you is like or what I'm personally interested in is like okay is this he can explain this to you and you come around to that perspective in one phone call. Is this just like wait Mark I got to think this is so [ __ ] crazy.

我有几天时间来考虑这件事。尽可能详细地讲讲这个过程吧。好几个星期里，我一直觉得：“这也太疯狂了吧。这是真的吗？这说得通吗？如果说得通，那我对此是什么感觉？”占主导的情绪更像是：这事儿简直有点疯狂。后来我想得更多了，意识到，哦，我真的得决定要不要这么做。光是这件事本身就够让人纠结了。我们和 Scale 的人、和投资人进行了很多次谈话。我的意思是，在那一方面，确实有很多很有意思的交流。显然，放下或者舍弃自己的心血真的很难。I got to think about this for a few days. Like explain this process as much as you can. many weeks of being like, "This is insane. Is this even real? Does this make any sense? If it does make sense, like how do I feel about it?" The predominant emotion was more like this is kind of insane. And then as I thought more about like, oh, I actually have to make a decision of whether or not I do this. That was it in and of itself. There were like a lot of like conversations there with the people at scale, with our investors. Like there were a lot of interesting conversations in in that uh on that side. I mean it's obviously like really hard to to like let go of or give up your baby

主持人：因为你做规模化工作做了多久？多少年？Host: cuz you worked on scale for how long? How many years?

嘉宾：是的。从创立到……用了9年。Guest: Yeah. 9 years from founding until the

主持人：而且你还年轻，甚至还不到30岁。所以这相当于你人生的三分之一。Host: And you're still young. You're not even 30 yet. So this is like a third of your life.

嘉宾：保罗·格雷厄姆很长时间以来都说过这么一句话，大意是，你知道，如果你把自己的公司当作毕生事业，你的行事方式就会不一样。我工作期间确实一直真心把 Scale 当作自己的毕生事业。这是一个艰难的情感过程。我想最终打动我的是多方面因素的结合：哇，这简直是个双赢、多赢的局面，各方都能受益；而且，我也看到了 Meta 可能实现的潜力。你知道，当时我觉得 Meta 在 AI 领域确实在很多方面都像是声誉受损，可能也不是最吸引人去做 AI 的地方，但我想这反而激发了我内心的创业者一面，让我觉得……Guest: There was something that Paul Graham said for a long time which is like you know if you think of your company as your life's work like you will operate differently. I did really genuinely think of of scales my life's work for the whole time that I was I was working on it. That was a tough emotional process. And then I think what ultimately got me was like a combination of wow this is like a win-win winwin like kind of all um it's it's a good deal for all parties and also just this like I saw the potential of what could happen at Meta. And you know, this is a point at which like I think meta on AI certainly looked like damaged goods in many ways and like was maybe not the most appealing place to work on AI, but I think that kind of like triggered my entrepreneur side where I was like

主持人：你基本上可以重新构建它。这就像是重新创立这个实验室。Host: you can essentially rebuild it. It's like a refounding of the lab.

嘉宾：是的，是的。我觉得这确实是后来变得相当有意思的一件事，因为当时很清楚，还有很多工作要做。这真的为我扫清了道路，让我能够从头开始搭建很多东西，确立正确的原则，建立合适的文化。它为我们创造了打造一番了不起事业的条件。Guest: Yeah. Yeah. Like I think this is this is one of the things that ended up being kind of fascinating which is like because it was you know it was clear that there was so much work to do. It really like cleared the way for me to be able to to kind of build a lot of stuff up from scratch, set up the right principles, build the right culture. Like it it created a the conditions for us to build something amazing.

从零开始重建 Meta 的 AI 实验室Rebuilding Meta's AI lab from scratch

主持人：你和马克也是这么讨论的吗？就像是，嘿，我们得在这里重新开始。显然，如果我们继续沿着这条路走下去，基本上就等于把现有的一切都推倒，然后换一支人才水平完全不同的团队重做。你们之间真的会有这样的对话吗？感觉他想要的不是小幅调整。你明白我的意思吗？他就是觉得：“哦，这完全行不通。肯定不会成功。那我们就把它拆到地基，再重新建起来。”没错。这是一个逐渐演变的讨论过程。我觉得，其中一点是，我一直非常相信——我认为埃隆在职业生涯的不同阶段都证明了这一点：只要有一支规模不大、技术能力极强、组织结构扁平的团队，你们就能非常非常快地完成很多事情。Host: And is that how you and Mark discuss it? It's like hey we have to hit a reset here. Like obviously like we're not if we keep on this path like we're essentially going to throw out what we have and redo it with a completely different uh like level of talent. Are these the conversations that are that occurring between you and him? It didn't seem like he wanted like a minor adjustment. You understand what I'm saying? He's just like, "Oh, this is not working at all. It's not going to work. Then let's, you know, rip it down to the foundation and rebuild." Correct. It was an evolving conversation where I think there were like like one of the things that I believe really strongly I think Elon is like has has demonstrated this in in various times in his career where you just have like a small incredibly cracked highly technical team that's like very flat and like if you do that you can accomplish a lot very very quickly.

所以那是我非常坚信的一件事，我也相信 AI 是正确的做法，尤其是如果你必须——你懂的——像我们当时那样行动，也就是以极快的速度推进。我觉得早期这也是我经常和 Mark 谈到的事情之一，我想他对此也很兴奋。后来，这成了我们整体战略的支柱之一：团队规模小、层级扁平、技术实力强、人才密度极高。如果具备这些要素，你能推进得有多快？从外部看来，在我看来，Mark 就像是把弹匣里的子弹一口气打光，对吧？嗯，你读过一本叫《拿破仑的心智》的书吗？So that was something that I had a lot of conviction in and like I believed in AI like that is the right approach especially if you had to you know do what we had to do which is like move very very quickly and I think early on that was one of the things I talked to Mark a lot about and I think he was excited about as well that ended up becoming one of the tent poles of our overall strategies like small very flat highly technical team very high talent density how quickly can you move if you have those ingredients From an outside perspective, it just seems like Mark like empties the clip is the way I think about this, right? Where um have you ever read this book called The Mind of Napoleon?

嘉宾：不。Guest: No.

主持人：好。所以，《拿破仑的心智》于 1957 年出版。我是看到一段采访才发现这本书的。我想是泰勒·考恩采访了萨姆·奥特曼。我记得那是 2018 年，他问奥特曼：“你今年读过的最重要的一本书是什么？”奥特曼说是《拿破仑的心智》。所以这本书很难找。我买到了，书有 300 页，内容全是拿破仑本人的话，按主题编排。书里他一再提到，犹豫是致命的。但他说，在采取行动之前，要经过大量审慎考虑。他会从各个角度研究，确保自己做出了正确的决定。我觉得这和马克做事的方式有些相似。他会反复斟酌，确认自己走在正确的道路上；但一旦做出决定，就会全力以赴。他不会……他会把子弹一口气打光。Host: Okay. So, mind and Napoleon published in 1957. Um I found it because I saw this interview. I think Tyler Cowan interviewed Sam Alman. And uh I think this is 2018 and he asked him like what's the most important book that you read this year? And he said the mind of Napoleon. So it's very hard to find. I buy the book. It's 300 pages of just Napoleon his own words organized by topic. And in that he talks about over and over again that hesitation is fatal. But he says before you engage in a course of action, there's a lot of deliberation. He'll like study from every angle, make sure he's making the right decision. I feel there's like a echo with the way Mark operates. Does a lot of deliberation, make sure he's on the right path. But once he makes that decision, he just goes all in. He won't like he just empties the clip.

这就是我当时对这件事的感受：就在他来找你、然后你们开始重建整个组织的这个时候，事情正在发生。我觉得他真的已经把“失败无关紧要”这件事内化了。重要的是你什么时候赢，以及赢得有多大。我觉得，总的来说，这种理念让他在很多情况下都能真正无所畏惧地行事，因为我觉得他很乐于承担各种风险。And that's the way I felt about like what was was occurring right at this point where he comes and gets you and then you guys start rebuilding this entire organization. I think he really has internalized that failure doesn't matter. It matters like when you win, how big you win. And I think this overall concept I think enables him to operate I think truly without fear in a lot of circumstances because I think he is just very comfortable taking lots of risk.

嘉宾：他有句很棒的话，大意是：在一个不断变化的世界里，最大的风险就是不冒任何风险。Guest: He's got that great line where it's like in a world that's changing all the time, the biggest risk is not taking any.

主持人：是的，没错。我觉得他已经把这些东西深深地内化了。比如说，世界上肯定存在一些情况，Meta 会在某种程度上更像 Google——就是，你知道，行动更迟缓、更官僚，作为一家公司看起来也完全不同。但我觉得，正因为他把其中一些经验教训内化得如此深刻，才让这家公司保持灵活、持续运转、充满活力。跟我说说……Host: Yeah, exactly. I think he's internalized this quite deeply. Like there's certainly like versions of the world where Meta looks a lot more like Google in some sense like it's just like you know more slowm moving and more bureaucratic and just like looks very different as a company but I think he because he's internalized some of these lessons so deeply keeps the thing dynamic and moving and live. talk me

从创始人到教练From founder to coach

说说两者的区别吧：你当时是创始人，在运营 Scale；现在你正在重新创办这个实验室，和 Mark 一起工作。你在这两种环境中处理工作的方式有什么不同？我内化得很深的一条经验是——我甚至不记得这建议是从哪儿来的——大概就是，如果你想成为一名优秀的创始人，就得能胜任每一份工作。我对公司里每件小事该怎么做、该如何运作，都有非常鲜明的看法。这就造就了一家在很大程度上是我努力和个人观点的产物的公司，这些东西也以各种方式体现在公司各处，但同时也让我在很多重要环节上成了瓶颈。through the difference between how like how you were as like you're you're the founder, you're running scale, now you're refounding this lab, working with Mark, like the different ways that you approach your work in those two uh environments at scale. One of the things like I really internalized and I don't even remember where this advice came from, but it was kind of one of these ideas that like if you want to be a good founder, you have to be able to do every job. had a very strong point of view about how like every little thing at the company should happen and should work. And that resulted in a company that was like very much so a product of my effort and like my point of view and it like expressed itself in all sorts of ways throughout the company but also made me the bottleneck in very big ways.

对于一家公司来说，这样做有利也有弊。我觉得，如果你是第一次创业，那肯定应该采取这种方式，因为这样成功的可能性要比不这么做高得多。There's like pros and cons of that for a company. I think definitely I think that's like you know if you were to start a company and it's your first time starting a company you should like definitely take that approach because it's like much more likely to be successful than if you don't take that.

嘉宾：扩大你的第一家公司。Guest: Scale your first company.

主持人：Scale 是我的第一家公司。Host: Scale is my first company.

嘉宾：是的。不过在 Meta，情况完全不同，因为我们必须在极短的时间内完成很多事情。我没有那么多时间，可以所谓地在实验室里把每项工作都亲自做一遍。我当然不是 AI 研究员，也不是产品设计师。你知道，我不是那些对组织取得成功至关重要的人才。于是，在 Meta，我确实采取了这样一种理念：我们要如何营造一种环境，让我们能够招揽优秀的人才？这就是头等大事——招揽才华横溢、能力出众的人，他们在各自领域都处于顶尖水平。Guest: Yeah. But at Meta like it was a very different assignment because we had to accomplish so much in so little time. Like I didn't have the luxury of being able to quote unquote do every job within the lab. I uh certainly am not an AI researcher. I'm also not a like product designer. I'm not you know I'm not all these things that are like totally pivotal to um the organization being successful. So at Meta very much so I adopted this like philosophy around just how do we create an environment where we're going to hire incredible people like it was like job number one hire brilliant and incredible people like who are at the top of their field across every discipline.

主持人：你为什么觉得你们在 Meta 能做到这一点？只是因为你们拥有更多资源吗？你们为什么能做到？我觉得，MSL 创立之初有一件事非常有魅力、很吸引人：我们有机会从零开始，用一支规模非常小的团队组建一个实验室，而且我们对前进的方向有明确的看法——个人超级智能。我觉得这引起了很多人的共鸣。比如，我认为每个从事 AI 工作的人，都想帮助他人；都希望这最终能对自己的妈妈、奶奶或爷爷之类的人有所意义；都希望它能对世界上的每一个人都有意义。因为我们是在 Meta 的资源支持下做这件事，所以我们有机会——我们不会受限于算力。Host: Why do you think you're able to do that at Meta? Is it just because you have more resources? Like why can you do that? I think one of the things that was charis very charismatic and attractive about the founding moment of MSL was there was an opportunity to build a lab from scratch with a really really small team and we had a strong point of view of where we're going personal super intelligence that I think resonated with people like I think everyone who works on AI wants to help people like wants it to ultimately like mean something to their mom or to their grandma or to their grandpa wants it to like be something that's like meaningful to every single person in the world because of the fact that we're doing this with the resources of meta. There was an opportunity to we weren't going to be bottlenecked by comput.

我们不会受基础设施之类因素的制约，也不会受分发渠道的制约。也就是说，我们不会像很多初创公司那样，受那些常见因素的制约；相反，这是一个机会，让你真正打造出某样东西，留下自己的印记，对它施加很大的影响，并真正塑造它。我觉得这对很多人来说都相当令人兴奋。We weren't going to be bottlenecked by like infrastructure. We weren't going to be bottlenecked by by distribution. like we weren't going to be bottlenecked by the things that like startups often are bottlenecked, but it was an opportunity to like really build something that you could like put your stamp on and have like a lot of influence over and really shape. I think that was like quite exciting for a lot of people.

嘉宾：所以这就是为什么他选择花一大笔钱——看起来简直是一大笔钱——来招揽少数顶尖人才，因为他知道这些顶尖人才接下来会招揽更多顶尖人才。但你得以此为起点。没错。Guest: And so that's why he chooses to spend an insane amount of money, what looks like an insane amount of money, getting a handful of top talent because then he knows that that those top talent will recruit in turn other top talent. But you need that as a starting point. Correct.

主持人：是的，是的。我觉得，关于这一点，可能有件事多少被低估了：我的意思是，OpenAI 和 Anthropic 的股价涨了很多。所以实际情况恰好是，如果你看看这些人留在 OpenAI 或 Anthropic 能赚多少钱，那也是一大笔钱。因此我觉得，对很多人才来说，从总的来看，薪酬方面最终在很多情况下其实差不多。不过显然，我觉得这也是同一个道理：我们很多人往往不会去想，那些早期加入这些实验室的员工或研究人员，随着股票价值大幅上涨，他们的薪酬究竟是什么样的。我们创办这个项目，完全是基于这样一种信念：要吸引并聘用最杰出的人才。这是一个……个人超级智能……这两点：我们如何在 Meta 和 MSL 创造一种环境，让人们能发挥出最佳水平？Host: Yeah. Yeah. And I think one thing that like is maybe somewhat underappreciated about that specific part is that like I mean the stock prices of OpenAI and Anthropic like ran up a lot. So it just happened to be the case that like you know if you looked at how much these people were making if they stayed at Open Eye or Enthropic like it also was like it was a lot of money. So I think for a lot of the talent it ended up being like kind of net neutral in many ways. um compwise, but obviously I think it's kind of like the same thing like oftentimes we don't we don't a lot of us don't think about how much like the early employees or the early researchers at these like labs that have had immense stock uh stock value appreciation you know what their comp looks like we started this like fully on the belief of having and hiring like most brilliant people that's one Slar personal super intelligence um those two how do we create the environment where people do their best work at Meta and in MSL.

我现在做的更多是所谓的传统管理。因为我经常在想，怎样才能营造一种环境，让这些才华横溢、非常出众、非常特别的人都能各展所长，最大程度地发挥自己的才华。我现在更多是像个教练一样思考，在某些方面是这样；而在规模化阶段，情况则完全不同——我就是那个……我是说，在我们做的每件事里，都必须体现我的观点。I'm doing much more of like quote unquote traditional management, so to speak. Cuz these are the things I'm like thinking a lot about is like how do I create the environment where all these brilliant people who are exceptional and very very special can all operate and achieve the greatest expression of their talent. I'm thinking a lot more like a almost like a coach in some in some ways versus at scale it was like very different like I was the aur I was like the person whose like point of view had to be expressed in everything that we did.

嘉宾：再多说说，你觉得自己像个教练这件事。我觉得我的工作是帮助设定我们的北极星，以及我们想要前进的方向——再次强调，是个人超级智能、在消费级 AI 领域胜出，以及打造对每个人都有意义的 AI；然后在团队中发掘有特殊才能的人，并为他们提供环境和资源，让他们能够最大程度地发挥才华。我觉得大公司经常会犯的一个错误是，大多数大公司里都有杰出的人才，但他们就是得不到充分授权，无法做出最好的工作。这也是为什么他们往往会离开，去规模更小的公司、初创公司，或者其他地方。你之前提到了杰夫·贝索斯的股东信。我读过的关于他的所有书里都提到了这一点，他在股东信中也反复强调：如果你有优秀的人才，却不让他们有所建树，他们就会离开。Guest: Say more about that you're you feel like a coach. I think that like my job is to a like help set the like north star and the like directionality of where we want to go, which again personal super intelligence, winning on consumer AI, like building AI that means something to every person and then spotting in the team special talent and then giving people the environment and resources to be able to express that maximally. Like I think one thing that big companies often mess up is that there's like exceptional people at most big companies but they just like are not empowered to do their best work and that's why they often leave to go to smaller companies or to startups or whatever it might be. You mentioned Jeff Bezos's shareholder letters earlier. That's something he would repeat as well and all the books I read about him but also shareholder letters like if you have great people that can't build they're going to leave.

主持人：对，没错。AI 是一种非常特别的东西。我觉得你知道，“研究”这个词现在听起来好像几乎已经失去了意义，但从定义上来说，人类并不知道这些模型的能力边界在哪里，也不知道能用它们做些什么。它们确实像是一些我们还完全不了解的未知产物。所以，这真的就是科学和研究。我们正在探索这项技术能做到什么，以及能够构建出什么，而这个过程需要大量反复试验，也需要杰出的人拥有非凡的洞察力。这是一种非常艰巨的过程，不能把它想得太轻松。人们需要空间、时间和资源，才能尽可能做好自己的工作。Host: Yeah, exactly. And AI is such like a it's like such a special thing. Like I think you know this term research now it it feels like it almost doesn't mean anything but like by definition humanity doesn't know the limits of what these like models are capable of and what are the things you can do with them. Like they really are these like unknown artifacts that we don't understand super world. So like it really is science and research. Like we are exploring the limits of what you can do with this technology and what are the things that can be built and it is a process that requires lots of trial and error. It requires like brilliant people to have incredible insight. Like it's one of these things that you can't think about this process like a very opishly intense process. Like people need space and time and resources to be able to like you know do their best work.

我会从很多个维度来思考这个问题，对吧？比如，我觉得 Nat Freiedman 绝对才华横溢。正如我提到的，Muse 有很大一部分都体现了他的想法；如果说 Muse 有某个人的单一视角贯穿其中，那个人就是他。现在，重要的是要让他处在一个能够充分表达这一切的位置上。我们还有一些才华横溢的研究人员，他们有非常非常令人振奋的想法。我们怎样才能营造一种环境，让他们能够探索这些想法呢？他们中的大多数尝试最终都不会成功，但有些会取得极其出色的成果。那些成功的案例足以证明所有投入都是值得的。所以，严格来说，这里有两类问题。这个类比就像是开采钻石或建造摩天大楼，具体取决于你所从事的各种事情，其回报分布是怎样的。And I think about in many dimensions, right? Like I think Nat Freiedman is absolutely brilliant and as I mentioned like so much of Muse if there were a single person whose like single point of view came through on Muse it is now it's important for him to be in a position where where he can like fully express all of that. And then we have some brilliant researchers. They have like very very exciting ideas. How do we create an environment where they are able to explore those? And like most of them won't work out. Some of them will work out incredibly well. The cases where that works out justify all the investment. So there's two kinds of problems so to speak and that analogy is like diamond mining or building skyscrapers and it depends on what the distribution of the payoff of the things that you're working on are.

有些领域的分布呈现出非常明显的幂律特征。你做的大多数事情可能都没什么用，但有些事情的价值可能真的比其他所有事情高出一百万倍。我觉得风投就是个很好的例子，可以把它看作钻石开采这类行业。关键就在于能识别出那些特别的想法，并一路推动它们实现。So there's like some areas where the distribution is super power. Like most of the things you do will be kind of useless, but then some of the things you do can be like literally a million times more valuable than everything else. VC I think is a great like diamond mining kind of industry to give a sense. It's just all about like being able to identify the special ideas and like see those through

嘉宾：而且这很容易做到。只要看一下，只要……Guest: and that's easy to do. Just look at just

亚历山大19岁生日派对上的未来亿万富翁The future billionaires at Alexandr's 19th birthday party

去参加你的 19 岁生日派对。go to your 19th birthday party.

主持人：是啊。我是说，这简直难以置信。嗯。Host: Yeah. I mean that's like unbelievable. Um

嘉宾：有没有听众不知道我刚才他妈提到的是什么？能不能简单说说，谁参加了你的19岁生日派对？如果他们当时投资了桌边的每一个人，为什么会是笔不错的投资？Guest: do people listening that don't know what the hell I just referenced? Can you talk about real quick what who was at your 19th birthday party and why that was would have been a good bet if they just invested everybody around the table?

主持人：这真是件想起来非常疯狂的事。我的19岁生日派对。我当时是MIT的大一新生。那是在一月份。我在做一个冬季实习，一个冬季实习，在一家叫HRT的交易公司做冬季实习。大概有10个人，12个人，嗯，差不多吧。几乎所有人都是哈佛或MIT的学生。我们大多数人之前就因为各种数学、科学或计算机科学竞赛而认识彼此。其他人中有Jeffrey Yan，他后来创办了Hyperliquid，非常成功。嗯，Scott Woo后来创办了Cognition，也非常成功。另一个在场的人是，呃，呃，Jesse Zang，他后来创办了Decagon，也相当成功。嗯，还有一个人是Vicky Yei，我觉得她是一位杰出的研究员，在Anthropic工作。每个人都极其有才华。我最近还和HRT的创始人聊过。顺便说一句，HRT现在本身也发展得非常好。Host: This is like a really crazy thing to think about. my 19th birthday party. I was a freshman at MIT. It was in January. I was doing a win internship, a winter internship, win internship at a trading firm called HRT. There were like 10 of us, 12 of us, um, something like that. Almost all of whom were students at either Harvard or MIT. Most of us already knew each other from various math and science or computer science competitions. Some of the other people were Jeffrey Yan who went on to start Hyperlquid very successful. Um Scott Woo went on to start Cognition very successful. Another person there was uh uh Jesse Zang went to start Decagon also quite successful. Um another person was Vicky Yei who is I think a brilliant researcher works at Anthropic. Everyone was like incredibly talented. I actually talked to the uh the founder of HRT recently and HRT itself by the way now is like crushing it.

难以置信。Unbelievable.

主持人：HRT 有什么作用？Host: What does HRT do?

嘉宾：HRT是一家自营交易公司。他们用自己的钱进行交易。2020年第二季度，呃，6的营收达到110亿美元，我想利润大概有80亿美元，这是创纪录的数字。我想HRT的员工不到一千人。我的意思是，这简直难以置信。不过我最近和HRT的创始人见了面，他们聊到：“哦，对，我们开始做一些私人投资了。”我就说：“直接投资实习生吧。给所有实习生发种子轮投资支票。”太棒了。Guest: HRT it's a proprietary trading firm. So they they trade their own money in Q2 of 2020 um 6 had 11 billion of revenue and like I think 8 billion of profit is the the record number. This is a I think it's under a thousand people work at HRT. I mean, it's like unbelievable. But I I recently uh met up with the founder of HRT and they were talking about like, "Oh yeah, we're starting to do some private investments." I was like, "Just invest into the interns. All the interns get seed checks." That's great.

主持人：我从小就参加数学、科学和计算机竞赛以及奥林匹克竞赛，也因此认识了来自美国各地、参加这类活动的各种各样的人。看到当年和我一起参赛的人如今取得如此大的成功，感觉相当不真实。Host: I grew up doing uh math and uh science and computer science competitions and Olympiads and got to know like all sorts of people from all around America doing this kind of stuff. It's like quite surreal to see the people that I did competitions with become so successful.

钻石开采与建造摩天大楼的比较Diamond mining vs. building skyscrapers

嘉宾：接下来几十年里，你们所有人会做些什么，肯定会很有意思。在我打断你之前，你是不是还想多谈谈钻石开采和摩天大楼之类的话题？归根结底，这是不是一种具有幂律回报的事情，也就是说，有些东西带来的回报可能是投入的整整一百万倍？还是说它更像建造摩天大楼——我会把数据标注，或者说数据业务，描述得更像这种模式。亚马逊 Prime 配送就是另一个例子，它的回报相当线性，你得开发出一套流程，并且把它做到非常非常出色。建造摩天大楼的话，这就是一门非常注重运营的生意，关键在于从流程中挤出每一分效率。你仔细审视整个流程，想办法让这一步的效率提高 2%，那一步提高 1%，另一处再提高 0.5%，然后就是不断从中挤出每一分优化空间。Guest: It's going to be fascinating what all of you do the next few decades. Before I interrupted you, did you have more to say about diamond mining and skyscraper stuff? Basically, it's like does it have a power law payoff where some things just like pay for like literally like a million times the investment or is it something more like building skyscrapers which I would I would describe data annotation or or or data businesses as more like this which is like Amazon Prime deliveries is another example where the payoff is pretty linear and you have to just get develop a process where you're like really really amazing at doing it. If you're building skyscrapers, then it's like a very operational business and it's all about like squeezing every ounce of efficiency out of that process and you just look at it and you figure out like I can make it like 2% more efficient this way and 1% more efficient that way and half a percent more efficient that way and you just try to squeeze every ounce of optimization out of it.

然后还有钻石挖掘这种方式，你有点像是在说：“嘿，大家，就像你们知道的那样，尽管去尝试各种疯狂的想法，而你只需要培育那些看起来有前景的想法。”And then there's diamond mining where you're kind of like, "Hey everyone, just like you know, go forth, try all your crazy ideas and like you're just nurturing the ideas that seem promising."

主持人：这就是你觉得自己现在在 Meta 做的事情。Host: That's what you feel you're doing at Meta right now.

嘉宾：这就是我觉得自己在 Meta 做的事情。还有，通常来说，构建服务器相关的东西，就是我觉得自己在大规模做的事情。这是一个很大的范式，嗯，范式差异。Guest: That's what I feel I'm doing at Meta. And and and the building server stuff generally speaking is what I felt I was doing at at scale. And that's like this big paradigm um paradigm difference.

为什么亚历山大有 200 多名直接下属Why Alexandr has more than 200 direct reports

回到辅导这件事，以及你现在在 Meta 和 WayScale 的管理方式有什么不同。你为什么有这么多直接下属？你有……大概 100 个直接下属？到底有多少？Going back to the coaching and the way the difference of how you're essentially managing now at meta compared to way scale. Why do you have so many direct reports? You have like what 100 direct reports? How many direct reports?

主持人：嗯，我觉得超过200个。嗯。HHost: Yeah, I think more than 200. Yeah. H

主持人：如何做到的？为什么？Host: how and why?

嘉宾：回到 MSL 创立时的核心理念之一，以及我们想做的事——重建这个实验室。我们要怎样才能拥有极高的人才密度？怎样才能让这里成为许多杰出人才发挥最佳水平的地方？又该怎样建立一个以技术为中心的组织，让技术人员能够做出最好的工作，真正有机会完成他们毕生的事业？围绕这一点，其中一项设计原则就是让组织架构非常扁平。实际上，我们招进这个名为 TBD 的团队的所有研究人员都直接向我汇报。这更多是在表明，我们反官僚主义。TBD 可以说是彻头彻尾地反官僚主义。关键在于，我们聘用的是杰出的人才，而且你们所有人都已经明确证明，自己能够做出极其出色的工作。Guest: Going back to it like one of the one of the founding thesis of MSL and and and what we want to do and like rebuilding this this lab was how do you have like really really high talent density? How do you make it like the best place for a lot of these brilliant people to do their best work and how do you build an organization that's like technically focused where the technical people are doing their best work, you know, have have the opportunity to really do their life's work. And one of the design principles around this was making it very flat. you know, effectively all the researchers that we hired into this group called TBD, they report directly to me. And it's more of a statement of the fact that like this is like anti-bureaucracy. Like TBD is like literally anti-bureaucracy. The point is we're hiring brilliant people and you all have like demonstrated clearly that you can do brilliant, brilliant work.

你们在职业生涯中应该都做过类似的事。所以我不需要事无巨细地管理你们，要求你们做出出色的工作；你们完全能够独立做到。我们需要技术领导力。你们当中有些人要负责为自己的团队制定明确的技术方向。我们的组织有点像 Pod 式结构，设有不同的 Pod，每个 Pod 都有技术负责人，在技术决策出现分歧时由他们拍板。所以，我们有一套技术领导结构；但从所谓的人员管理角度，或者从官僚主义的角度来说，我们就是反官僚主义。另一方面，我们确实会做很多集体决策。我们希望大家展开辩论，因为这里汇聚了许多才华横溢、能力出众的人。You have like done it before in your careers. So I don't need to be micromanaging you to do brilliant work. you're going to be able to do that on your own. We need technical leadership. So, some of you are going to be responsible for like setting clear technical directions for your groups and we have this kind of like pod structure where we have various pods and there's various technical leads of the pods who who tie break on the technical decisions. So, there's like a technical leadership structure in place, but from a quote unquote people management perspective or from a bureaucracy perspective, we're just anti-bureaucracy. And then the other part of this is like we do make a lot of group decisions. Like we want to debate because it is like a very talent dense group of like brilliant people.

我们希望能进行这样的讨论：大家一起探讨，我们觉得正确的方向是什么。实验室里的每个人都做出了出色的成果。我们想听听大家的各种意见，也希望最终找到一条我们都认为是最佳的前进道路。所以，这确实是一种非传统的团队管理方式。如果我说自己是管理 200 多个人的最佳人选，那我就是在撒谎。但这其中的重点是，他们不需要管理者，他们需要的是一个出色的环境。他们都很优秀，也都非常有能力。他们只需要有足够的空间施展才华。We want to have those conversations where we're all discussing what do we think the right path is. Everyone in the lab has done brilliant things. Like we want to hear all these opinions. We want to arrive at things that we all believe are the best path forward. So it's certainly like an unconventional way to run the team. And like I would be lying if I said I was like the best manager to more than 200 um people. But this part of the point is that like they don't need managers, they need a great environment. They are all brilliant. They're all extremely capable. They just need the room to cook.

主持人：是的。所以也许你不算是教练。你更像是优质环境的管家，让他们能够出色地完成工作。Host: Yeah. And so maybe not a coach. You're kind of like the steward of a great environment so they can do great work.

嘉宾：是的。没错。Guest: Yeah. Exactly.

主持人：Alex，太棒了，伙计。谢谢你抽出时间。Host: Alex, this was awesome, man. Thanks for making taking the time.

嘉宾：是的。Guest: Yeah.

主持人：希望你喜欢这一期节目。请记得在你收听节目的平台订阅，并留下评论。也别忘了收听我的另一档播客《Founders》。近十年来，我如痴如醉地读了 400 多本历史上最伟大企业家的传记，从中寻找可以应用到你工作中的点子。你在这档节目中听到的大多数嘉宾，最初都是通过《Founders》认识我的。Host: I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please remember to subscribe wherever you're listening and leave a review. And make sure you listen to my other podcast, Founders. For almost a decade, I've obsessively read over 400 biographies of history's greatest entrepreneurs, searching for ideas that you can use in your work. Most of the guests you hear on this show first found me through founders.