Google Labs：用实验找到值得做的 AI 产品

简要说明Brief Description

为什么如今每家公司都需要像实验室团队一样思考和运营 | Josh Woodward（Google Labs 副总裁）Why every company now needs to think and operate like a lab team | Josh Woodward (VP Google Labs)

目录Table of Contents

• 引言
  Introduction
• 为什么如今每家公司都需要像实验室团队那样思考
  Why every company now needs to think like a labs team
• 伟大创意从何而来
  Where great ideas come from
• “几乎可行”框架
  The “almost possible” framework
• 寻找产品与市场的契合点
  Finding product-market fit
• 爱上问题，而非解决方案
  Falling in love with the problem, not the solution
• 何时该放弃一个想法
  When to kill an idea
• 负责监督 Google Labs 和 Gemini 应用程序
  Overseeing Google Labs and the Gemini app
• 下一代消费级 AI 突破
  Next consumer AI breakthroughs
• Google 对个人助理的愿景
  Google’s vision for a personal assistant
• 当前 AI 领域哪些被过度炒作，哪些又被低估了？
  What is overhyped and underhyped in AI right now
• 价值日益提升的技能：快速摒弃旧知的能力、爆发性耐力、信任
  Skills rising in value: unlearning rate, explosive endurance, trust
• 为什么各类角色并没有融合成一种通用的构建者角色
  Why roles are not blurring into one universal builder role
• 爆发性耐力节奏
  Explosive endurance rhythms
• 规划方式的变化：滚动窗口与 100 天里程碑
  How planning has changed: rolling windows and 100-day milestones
• 实验室生命周期阶段
  Labs lifecycle stages
• 搭建内部实验室的技巧
  Tips for setting up an internal lab
• 人工智能世界中的产品未来
  The future of products in an AI world
• Google Labs 的文化、仪式与结语
  Google Labs culture, rituals, and closing thoughts

简介Introduction

我的核心观点是，每家公司都需要开始以实验室团队的方式思考和运作。My thesis is that every company needs to start thinking and operating like a labs team.

主持人：每家公司肯定都需要一群人，一个团队。他们的工作就是站在前沿。他们就是那种什么工具都订阅，每个月花两百美元的订阅费，而且一口气订了八个的人。Host: Every company definitely needs a set of people, a team. Their job is to be at the frontier. They're the people who have like eight $200 a month subscriptions on everything.

嘉宾：每个人都必须善于用最新模型尝试各种方法，在竞争对手发现之前、在初创公司抢走你的市场之前，弄清楚现在能做到什么。Guest: Everyone has to get really good at trying a bunch of stuff with the latest models, figuring out what is now possible before your competition does, before a startup comes and eats your lunch.

主持人：你必须努力创造一个空间，让奇特的事物得以生长。如果你回顾那些大公司创办实验室的历史，会发现这些实验室通常效率低下，大约三到四年后就会不了了之。你不能只是把它安置在现有的业务部门之下。它必须拥有某种独立性。Host: You've got to try to create a space where weird things can grow. If you look at the history of a large company who starts a lab, the lab is usually ineffective and fizzles out after about 3 to four years. You can't just nestle this under an existing business unit. It has to have its own kind of independence.

主持人：你见过并尝试、制作原型的想法，可能比其他任何人都多。最好的想法通常来自哪些模式？Host: You've seen more ideas thrown at the wall and tried and prototyped than maybe anyone else. What are some patterns of where the best ideas come from?

主持人：它们很少诞生于设计冲刺，也不会出现在传统场合。好点子不是微波一下就能做出来的。你发现哪些技能的价值正在上升？Host: They very rarely come from design sprints. They don't come in conventional places. You can't microwave good ideas. What skills are you finding are trending up in value?

主持人：我现在其实很想了解人们这方面的情况。他们的遗忘速度有多快？他们能多快学会某样东西，然后又把它抛诸脑后？Host: I'm actually looking a lot right now for people. What's their unlearning rate? How fast can they learn something and then walk away from it?

主持人：关于产品与市场契合度的表现，有什么可能会让人们感到意外？Host: What's something that might surprise people about what product market fit looks like?

嘉宾：当你向人们展示早期原型时，你要看他们的眼睛。这就是衡量指标。Guest: When you're showing people early prototypes, you're looking at people's eyes. That is the metric.

主持人：有哪些迹象表明是时候放弃一个想法了？Host: What are signs that it's time to kill an idea?

客人：团队通常比领导者更早知道。Guest: The team usually knows before the leader knows.

主持人：今天的嘉宾是乔什·伍德沃德。乔什负责领导 Google Labs、Gemini 应用和 AI Studio。他在 Google 工作了 16 年多，职责是试验并扩大新 AI 产品的规模。我认为这场对话很有价值，背后的想法是：如今每家公司都不得不以实验室团队的方式思考和运作，因为可能实现的事情变化得实在太快了。你必须非常擅长尝试最新技术、开展大量实验，并在竞争对手或初创公司之前发掘新的机会。乔什领导着全球历史最悠久、规模最大的实验室团队。他分享了许多非常具体的经验：最好的创意从何而来，如何判断何时该放弃一个想法，达到产品市场契合度时会是什么样子，在当今时代哪些技能越来越有价值，为什么各种角色实际上并没有模糊成一个统一的开发者角色，等等，其中还包括一些颇为劲爆的内容。Host: Today, my guest is Josh Woodward. Josh is head of Google Labs, the Gemini app, and AI Studio. He's been at Google for over 16 years, and his job is to experiment with and scale new AI products. My premise for this conversation, and why I believe it is so valuable, is that every company is being forced to think and operate like a labs team. Because what is now possible is changing so quickly. You have to get very good at playing with the latest technologies, running tons of experiments, and uncovering new opportunities before your competition or startups do. Josh runs the longest lasting and biggest labs team in the world. And he shares a ton of very specific lessons about where the best ideas come from, how to know when to quit an idea, what it looks like when you have product market fit, what skills are becoming more valuable in today's era, why roles aren't actually blurring into one builder role, and so much more, including some spicy stuff.

非常感谢 Steven Johnson、Sophie Miller、Jeff Hong 和 Logan Kilpatrick 为这次对话推荐主题和问题。在开始之前，我注意到很多人不会听完整期节目，这完全没关系，但这样一来，你可能会错过最精彩的部分。为了帮你补上这些内容，我新建了一个名为 Lenny's Most Replayed Moments 的 YouTube 频道，精选的正是我们长篇节目中最常被重播和分享的片段。欢迎前往 lennispodcast.com/mosre replayed moments 查看并订阅。简介里也有链接。接下来，为大家请出 Josh Woodward。A huge thank you to Steven Johnson, Sophie Miller, Jeff Hong, and Logan Kilpatrick for suggesting topics and questions for this conversation. Before we get into it, I've noticed a lot of people don't finish the episodes, which is totally fine, but you end up missing the best stuff. So, to help you, I've created a new Lenny's Most Replayed Moments YouTube channel that is exactly that, the most rewatched and shared segments from our long- form episodes. Check it out and subscribe at lennispodcast.com/mosre replayed moments. There's also a link in the description. With that, I bring you Josh Woodward.

为什么如今每家公司都需要像实验室团队那样思考Why every company now needs to think like a labs team

Josh，非常感谢你今天来到这里。欢迎来到我们的播客。谢谢。很高兴来到这里。你能来就更好了。我想先说明一下这次谈话的前提，然后想听听你的看法，看看你是否认同。Josh, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you. So great to be here. It's even better to have you here. I want to first lay out the premise for this conversation and I want to get your take if you agree with this.

嘉宾：嗯。嗯。听起来不错。Guest: Yeah. Yeah. Sounds good.

主持人：Worldview。所以我的观点是，每家公司都需要开始像实验室团队那样思考和运作，因为我们赖以构建一切的底层技术变化得太快了。这意味着我们能做的事情也在飞速变化。也就是说，现在每个人都必须非常擅长用最新的模型尝试各种东西，基本上，呃，要赶在竞争对手之前、赶在某家初创公司抢走你的生意之前，弄清楚现在有哪些事是可能做到的。所以我觉得，如今越来越重要的技能，正是你们已经非常擅长的那些：寻找好点子，想办法开展大量实验，弄清楚哪些方向值得加码，呃，组建能够以这种方式运作的团队，同时又不让那些花里胡哨的新东西分散公司其他人的注意力，让他们专注于手头的工作。Host: Worldview. So my thesis is that every company is needs to start thinking and operating like a labs team because the underlying tech that we're all building on is changing so fast. Which means what we can do is changing so fast. Which means that now everyone has to get really good at trying a bunch of stuff with the latest models and basically uh figuring out what is now possible before your competition does, before a startup comes and eats your lunch. And so it feels like the skills that will matter more and more now are things that you all have gotten really good at, which is finding great ideas, figuring out how to run a ton of experiments, figuring out what to double down on, uh building teams that can operate this way, at at the same time not distracting the rest of the company from all the shiny stuff and letting them focus.

那么总体来说，呃，你觉得这对你来说有共鸣吗？So broadly, uh how do you does that resonate?

嘉宾：是的，我觉得你的前提完全正确。嗯，我觉得你刚才提到的那些事情，关键都在细节里。所以我认为，容易做到的是——你知道，从某种意义上说，每家初创公司都是一个实验室。真正的问题是，怎样才能把同样的方法、理念、活力和热情带到更大的团队，甚至中等规模的团队里。嗯，但我绝对认为这很有必要。接下来的问题是，没错，怎样才能营造这样的环境，并培育、发展出既能孕育创意、也能让人们茁壮成长的氛围？Guest: Yeah, I I think your premise is spot on. Um I think the devil's in the details with all those things you just said. So I think what's easy for you know in some ways every startup is a lab and the real question is like how do you bring some of that same methodology ideas energy excitement into bigger teams or even medium-sized teams. Um but I absolutely think it's needed and then the question is yeah how do you build that environment and nurture and cultivate the kind of both ideas but also the people uh that can really thrive there.

主持人：太棒了。好，这正是我们接下来要讨论的内容。Host: Awesome. Okay that's exactly what we're going to talk about.

嘉宾：没错。本期节目由本季冠名赞助商 Work OS 赞助。OpenAI、Anthropic、Cursor、Replet、Sierra、Clay 以及数百家其他成功企业有什么共同点？它们都由 Work OS 提供支持。如果你正在为企业打造产品，就一定体验过集成单点登录、SCIM、RBAC、审计日志以及大型企业所需其他功能的痛苦。Work OS 将这些交易拦路虎变成了即插即用的 API，并提供专为 B2B SaaS 打造的现代开发者平台。我投资的创业公司，只要开始向高端市场拓展，最后都会与 Work OS 合作。原因很简单：他们是最好的。无论你是正在努力拿下首个企业客户的种子轮创业公司，还是正在全球扩张的独角兽，Work OS 都是最快让你做好服务企业准备、扫清增长障碍的途径。Guest: Yep. This episode is brought to you by our season's presenting sponsor, Work OS. What do OpenAI, Anthropic, Cursor, Replet, Sierra, Clay, and hundreds of other winning companies all have in common? They are all powered by work OS. If you're building a product for the enterprise, you've felt the pain of integrating single sign on, SKIM, Arbback, audit, logs, and other features required by large companies. work OS turns those deal blockers into drop-in APIs with a modern developer platform built specifically for B2B SAS. Literally every startup that I'm an investor in that starts to expand up market ends up working with Work OS. And that's because they are the best. Whether you are a seedstage startup trying to land your first enterprise customer or a unicorn expanding globally, work OS is the fastest path to becoming enterprise ready and unblocking growth.

它本质上就是面向企业级功能的 Stripe。访问 works.com 即可开始，或者直接去他们的 Slack 社区，那里有真正的工程师等着为你答疑。WorkOS 凭借令人愉悦的 API、全面的文档和流畅的开发者体验，帮助你更快地构建产品。立即前往 works.com，让你的应用满足企业级需求。It's essentially Stripe for enterprise features. Visit works.com to get started or just hit up their Slack where they have actual engineers waiting to answer your questions. Workos allows you to build faster with delightful APIs, comprehensive docs, and a smooth developer experience. Go to works.com to make your app enterprise ready today.

伟大的创意从何而来Where great ideas come from

那么，我想先从构思、寻找好点子开始。如果回顾一下实验室里，甚至整个 Google，涌现出的那些最佳点子，你觉得这些好点子通常来自哪里？有什么规律吗？So, I'm going to start with coming up with ideas, finding great ideas. If you were to reflect back on the best ideas that emerged out of labs and even in Google in general, what are what are some patterns of where the best ideas come from?

主持人：是啊，这很有意思，因为我希望很多这类问题的答案都能写在书后的答案栏里。要说其中有一件事——可能算是一点观察吧，Lenny——那就是，它们来自各种各样的地方。我一直觉得，有一条经验是，你得时刻留意那些能吸引你目光的东西。也许我们待会儿可以再聊聊这个。至少以我的经验来看，这些点子很少是在设计冲刺中产生的，也很少是在你特意在日历上留出时间、想着“好，我们就要在这时候想出下一个点子”的时候冒出来的。它们通常是在大家在走廊里走动时出现的，也可能是在周末——哦，常常是在休息期间。我们很多实验室团队会一直琢磨、打造各种东西，简直停不下来；之后他们回来，或者分享一段视频，说：“快看这个超棒的东西。”Host: Yeah, it's interesting because a lot of them I wish there was an answer in the back of the book where there was one thing the maybe one observation Lenny is there the they come from a variety of places. So one lesson I've always felt is like you always have to be watching for something that catches your eye. Maybe we come back to that in a second. They very rarely, at least in my experience, have come from design sprints or times where you set aside on a calendar, okay, this is where we're going to go come up with our next idea. They usually come when people are swimming in the hallway, maybe on a weekend, oh, often over a break, a lot of our labs teams will be hacking and building on stuff and they just can't help themselves and they'll come back and or they'll share a video and be like, look at this amazing thing.

嗯，所以我觉得其中一个经验就是要时刻保持警觉。第二个经验是，它们不会出现在常规的地方。好点子不能靠微波炉速成。还有，我观察到的第三点可能是，有时候重点不在于点子本身，也不在于那些有趣的人，而更重要的是他们有趣的小副业和热爱的事情，以及如何围绕这些创造出化学反应。因为至少过去四五年里，我们在实验室发现，这些想法——无论是 Notebook、Flow、AI Studio、Google Beam，还是其他类似的东西——都是由一小群人发起的。他们对某件事着了迷，通常也对它充满好奇，而且会一直钻研下去。所以，怎样创造一个能让这种事发生的空间，然后保持警觉，及时发现它，并设法把它引导下去呢？Um, so I think one lesson is like always on alert. Second lesson is like they don't come in conventional places. You can't microwave good ideas. And maybe that leads to a third thing I've seen is sometimes it's about less about the idea and who are the interesting people and more importantly what are their interesting little side projects and passion things and like creating the chemistry around that because usually what we found at least in labs over the last four or five years is that all these ideas whether they're notebook or flow or AI studio or Google beam or any of this stuff they get started like very small groups of people who are just obsessed and usually very curious about something and they just won't stop. Um, and so they you kind of like how do you kind of create a space where that can happen and then kind of be on alert to like catch it and try to like you know funnel it funnel it forward.

嘉宾：所以我听下来觉得挺有意思：这和设计冲刺不太一样。呃，我没听到你提到头脑风暴会议是好点子的来源。Guest: So what I'm hearing here is interestingly not like design sprints. Uh I didn't hear brainstorm meetings in there as a place good good ideas come from.

“几乎可行”框架The “almost possible” framework

主持人：是的。嗯，有没有什么例子？你知道，听这段内容的人可能会想：他们能从中得到什么，来帮助自己找到好点子？比如，他们可能是创业公司的创始人，或者在大公司里尝试最新的模型。嗯，你觉得哪些条件最有帮助？Host: Yeah. Um, is there an example maybe because you know like someone listening to this I'm I'm trying to think about what can they take from this to find to help them find great ideas say they're a startup founder or at a big company playing with the latest models. Um, what are some like the conditions that you find most help?

嘉宾：是的，是的。我是说，我们经常尝试做的一件事，我觉得在任何一种情况下都适用，那就是：你怎么才能让自己站到前沿？这既可以通过玩模型来实现，也可以通过观察哪些类型的体验刚刚变得可能。我们团队有个说法，常聊“哪些事几乎就要成为可能了”，其实我们还有一份清单[清了清嗓子]，在努力追踪这些事。当其中一件事跨过那道门槛时，感觉就像发生了相变——某种东西从固态变成气态，或者从液态变成气态之类的。你会想：“噢，这刚刚变得可行了。”两天前我就看到了一件这样的事，现在脑子里一直在想着它。Guest: Yes. Yes. I mean one thing we try to do a lot and I think this would apply in any of those situations is like how do you get yourself to the frontier and that can be both with like playing with the models but also just watching what are the types of experiences that have just become possible where we have a phrase on the team we talk about what's almost possible and we just have a list actually [clears throat] where we're trying to track those things and when one crosses over it's almost like a phase shift when something goes from like solid to gas or liquid to gas or something. You're like, "Oo, that just became possible." I saw one of these two days ago and I can't stop thinking about it.

主持人：你能告诉我们吗，还是这是一个……Host: Are you able to tell us or it's a

嘉宾：嗯，可能很快吧。不过这就像是，如果你身处前沿，正尝试各种模型、观察正在发生的事情，而且心里有这样一份清单，那么当你看到某件事——无论是在 X 上还是别的地方——就会想：“好，这件事刚刚变得可行了。”嗯，然后我们就会想，怎么围绕它组建一支团队，然后马上行动。嗯，所以如果你正处于创业阶段，在思考这些问题，或者可能正开始向风投机构推介创意之类的，这大概就是我会采用的思路。当然，光有技术还不够，你还得把它和一个有意思的用户问题结合起来。理想情况下，如果你能把两者以一种足够出色的方式结合起来，人们就会愿意为它付费。这就是我们很早就开始寻找的几种要素的组合。Guest: uh maybe soon, but it's like you you kind of if you're at the frontier playing with the models watching what's happening and you kind of have this list, then when you see something, whether it's on X or wherever, then you're like, "Okay, that just now has become possible." Um, and then we try to think about how do we get a team around that and just go. Uh, and so that may be as you're kind of in startup land if you're thinking or maybe you're starting to pitch ideas to VCs or whatever. That's kind of how I'd be trying to think about. And then of course tech alone isn't enough, you've got to kind of match that to an interesting user problem. And ideally, if you can put those together in a way that's so good, people will pay for it. That's kind of the combination of things we start looking for uh pretty early.

所以这是个挺有意思的策略：列出那些几乎已经可行的事情，然后留意什么时候会发现：“哇，这现在已经可行了，我们来探索一下吧。”So that's an interesting tactic there is make a list of what is almost possible and then watch for okay wow this is now possible let's explore this now

主持人：对，没错。Host: yeah that's right

嘉宾：你能分享一下清单上有哪些目前还做不到、但已经近在咫尺，是你正在等待、密切关注的吗？Guest: is there anything on that list you can share of things that are not yet possible but almost possible that you're waiting for watching for

主持人：嗯，也许我可以分享几个方面，因为我觉得我们在实验室里看待这件事的方式是，我们，嗯……Host: well maybe I I can share a few areas I because I think how we think about it in labs is we um

嘉宾：我们会做这样一种思维实验，思考某件事的未来会是什么样子，比如软件设计与开发的未来、创造力的未来、工作或知识的未来。嗯，我们现在非常密切关注的一个领域，就是娱乐的未来会是什么样子。单从技术层面来说，沉浸式娱乐这个概念就很有意思，原因有很多；但你也可以想想用户的行为模式：去年的娱乐是什么样，今年又是什么样，明年或者三年后又会是什么样。嗯，我们围绕这个方向列了一长串问题，比如说，如果模型能达到这样的延迟水平，支持这么多种语言和模态，那就可以开始从技术角度设想，哪些事情会很有意思。Guest: we have kind of a kind of a bit of a thought experiment we go through where we're like what is the future of a certain thing going to look like so the future of software design and development or the future of creativity, the future of work or knowledge. Um, one area we're watching very close right now is just like what is the future of entertainment going to look like? And this whole idea around immersive entertainment is super interesting just at a technical level for many reasons, but also you think about just kind of the user sort of behaviors and like what does entertainment look like last year, this year versus next year or maybe in three years. Um, and so that's one where we've got a whole list underneath that where we're like, oo, okay, well, if a model can get to this kind of latency and this amount of languages in this amount of modality, you you can start to kind of think through what would be interesting from the tech side.

然后我们会在实验室里做大量工作，研究行为和趋势的发展方向。当然，其中一些可以在湾区进行研究，但对于我们的许多团队来说，我总是在想，怎样才能走出湾区，去得更远。嗯，也会思考还有哪些城市、教室和其他地方，可以挖掘灵感，了解这些行为变化。And then we do a lot of work in labs around where are just behaviors and trends going. And for that, some of it, of course, you can kind of study in the Bay Area, but for a lot of our teams, I'm always thinking about how do we get way outside the Bay Area. Um, and thinking about where are the other cities, the classrooms, the the other places to kind of like like almost like mine for ideas and these behavioral changes.

主持人：所以，这里有个很有意思的结论：你并不是只是在等待灵感突然降临，而是做了大量前期准备，去思考哪些事情已经差不多行得通、我们认为未来可能会朝哪个方向发展，以及哪些领域即将迎来颠覆性变革。Host: So, an interesting takeaway here is this. You're not just waiting for inspiration to strike. You're doing a lot of pre-work to think about here's what is almost working. Here's where we think the future might be going. Here's areas that are going to be ripe for disruption.

嘉宾：没错。是的。在我提到的那份文档里，我们有 82 个预测，每个都以“我们相信未来会……”或“我们预测……”开头。做出一个预测都很危险，更不用说 82 个了。不过我认为，你几乎必须对未来有所看法，同时也要知道，十有八九，甚至十有九点九，你都会错。但我觉得，我们真正努力在团队中培养的，就是如何追寻未来。这是我们的价值观之一，也是我们努力追寻未来的方式。你几乎必须让自己投身其中，试着稍微活在未来里。Guest: That's right. Yeah. In this doc I talked about, we have um 82 predictions that all begin with we believe the future is or we predict. Um this is dangerous ever to make one prediction, let alone 82. So, but I think you have to almost have a point of view about the future knowing that nine out of 10 or maybe 9.9 out of 10 you're going to be wrong. But I think that's one of the things we really try to cultivate in the team is how do we chase the future? That's one of the values and sort of trying to chase it. You almost have to throw yourself out there and try to live in it a little bit.

寻找产品与市场的契合点Finding product-market fit

主持人：当你在淋浴时冒出一个想法，什么迹象会让你觉得这个想法值得继续推进？有什么迹象能说明，嗯，这至少值得一开始押上一注？而哪些又往往只是虚假的信号，让你觉得“好吧，不，这其实行不通”？Host: What are signs to you that an idea is worth pursuing when you're in the shower, you have this idea. What's a sign that okay, that's worth betting on, at least for to start with. And what's often just like a false false signal like okay, no, that's actually not going to work.

嘉宾：是的。我觉得对我来说，有一点尤其是，当你列着这些清单、想着未来的时候，如果你看到什么让你感到意外，或者以某种方式让你特别感兴趣的东西，而且你能这样描述它——大约48小时前我看到的那个东西，我离开那个演示时心想：这也太令人兴奋了。嗯，我觉得这或许是我会稍微用来判断的一个信号：努力站在前沿，然后看看什么会让我感兴趣或兴奋，再和团队一起从中汲取动力。我觉得如今这个标准太低了，因为一切都太神奇了；或者反过来说，现在什么都变成了：“好吧，太棒了，这东西能替我报税，当然，这本来就该如此。”Guest: Yeah. I think one thing for me, especially when you've got these lists going and you're thinking about the future, when you see something that surprises you or maybe that's very interesting to you in a certain way and if you can describe it to yourself like this thing I saw about 48 hours ago, I was I left that sort of demo and I thought this is so exciting. Um, and I think that's maybe a signal I use a little bit is like trying to be at the frontier and then what makes me interested or excited and then feeding off that kind of with the team together. I feel like that's too that bar is too low these days because everything is so magical and like or it's the opposite now everything okay great this thing is doing my taxes for me of course that's just the way

主持人：对，对Host: yeah yeah

嘉宾：我觉得，显然，这些令人兴奋的东西可能更多是技术层面的。没错，现在隔三差五，甚至每隔一小时，就会有令人眼花缭乱的演示。但我觉得，我们也得想清楚，用户行为中哪些可能是普遍存在的，或者这一方面是不是正在发生某种变化。还有，我们对变现的思考也是：你能不能触达一群离不开它的人——它对他们来说价值如此之高，以至于他们真的愿意付钱。然后再想想怎么把这些要素结合起来。不过，我想有时候机会确实得从其中某个方面出现。Guest: I think this is one of the things obviously that excitement is maybe a tech thing and yeah there's dazzling demos every other day or every other hour right now but then I think trying to think through where's the user behavior maybe that is like universal or maybe there is some shift on that side and then the way we think about monetization too is like can you get to a group of people that are just going to like can't live without it like they literally will pay you because it's so valuable to them and then kind of how you can kind of put those pieces together. But yeah, sometimes it's got to come from one of those areas I would say.

主持人：有没有一个以这种方式诞生的产品的绝佳案例或故事？Host: Is there a great example or story of a product that emerged in this way?

嘉宾：是啊，我是说，我还记得第一次听到 NotebookLM 播客时的情景，我清楚地记得自己当时站在哪里，就在这间屋子外面。嗯，那大概是周二晚上六点半左右，团队里有两个人走过来对我说：“你得听听这个。”内容是英国议会辩论的记录。嗯，这可不是什么以精彩著称的材料，但这两位 AI 主持人聊起它来，听起来真的很有意思。那次我们就觉得，得用这个做点什么。还有一次，我记得第一次看到 Google Flow 生成的内容。此前我们有个叫 Whisk 的项目，你可以把多张图片融合在一起，然后让它们动起来。Guest: Yeah, I mean the fir I remember still the first time I heard the first like notebook LM podcast exactly where I was standing it was right outside this room. Um, and it was probably at like 6:30 p.m. on a Tuesday or something and there were two people on the team who came over and were like, "You got to listen to this." And it was the proceedings of the British Parliament debates. Um, not known for its riveting material, but these two AI hosts were talking about it in a way that was was literally interesting. And that that was one where we're like, we got to just do something with this. And that was one. I remember the first time when I saw something come out of Google Flow. We had a project before that called Whisk where you could whisk together multiple images and then start to animate them.

而且那是一种以前从未能实现的控制力和创意表达方式，我算是让它变得触手可及了。嗯，也许这就是两个例子。我们也有其他例子：我们兴致勃勃地尝试打造某款产品，结果它就是不好用。所以，嗯，你知道，另一点是，这在某种程度上也是一场数字游戏。And it was a level of control and creative kind of channeling that had never been possible that I kind of made it was like that accessible. Um so maybe those are two examples. We also have other examples where we get excited, we try to build some product, it's just not good. So, um, you know, that's the other thing is a little bit of like a game of numbers in this as well.

主持人：我们来聊聊产品市场契合度，以及有哪些迹象表明某件事确实奏效了。我感觉你见过、尝试过并做过原型的点子，可能比其他任何人都多。我不知道这是不是真的，但感觉确实如此。对你来说，有哪些迹象说明我们应该加大投入？还有，产品市场契合度是什么样的，有什么地方可能会让人意外？ 是的，我觉得其中最棘手的一点，也许就是这件事更像一门艺术，而不是科学。我真希望它是科学。比如，我们知道怎么做科学实验、根据数据做决策、设定 OKR，还有各种能提供帮助的流程。但在早期，Lenny，有时候真的就是团队里几个人很有信念，他们会说：“我觉得未来会是这个样子。”可我没法解释为什么。Host: Let's talk about product market fit and signs that something's actually working. I feel like you've seen more ideas thrown at the wall and tried and prototype than maybe anyone else. I don't know if that's true, but it feels true. What are what are signs to you that this is something we need to double down on? And what's what's something that might surprise people about what about what product market fit looks like? Yeah, I think one of the maybe trickiest parts of it is it is way more art than science. I wish it was science. like we know how to run science experiments, make datadriven decisions, set OKRs, like all this process that helps like um sometimes in the early days, Lenny, it's literally a couple of people on the team who might just have conviction and they're just like, I think the future is going to look like this and I don't I can't explain it.

难就难在，这种建议其实没那么有用，也帮不上太多忙。不过我想说，这只是其中一部分。我觉得还有一些可能更有用。呃，我们经常聊怎么走出办公室，直接把原型拿给大家看。你给大家看早期原型时，我总会观察他们的眼睛——这就是衡量指标。呃，不是 DAU，也不是 DAU/MAU，更不是 D7 留存。都不是。嗯，说白了就是：“嘿，Lenny，你看到这个了吗？你觉得怎么样？”如果你看到他们眼睛一亮，身体往前倾，这些就是你在早期要留意的信号。That's what's hard to like that advice is just not that useful or helpful. But I would say that's some of it. I think maybe a little more useful. Uh we talk a lot about how do we get outside the building and just show people prototypes. And when you're showing people early prototypes, what I'm always doing in those is you're looking at people's eyes and like that is the metric like uh it is not a Dow is not a Dow over a MAU. It's not a D7 retent. It's none of that. Um it's literally like hey like Lenny did you see this? Uh what do you think about this? And like if your eyes kind of light up, if you lean in, these are the kind of signals you're looking for at the early days.

爱上问题，而非解决方案Falling in love with the problem, not the solution

也许我想说的第三点——这也算是从你问题的另一面来说吧——是，对于那些会对某些事情兴奋起来的人，我们通常会试着想想：我们真正迷恋的是什么问题，而不是产品。因为我发现，往往得经历三四五次转型之后，你才会要么做出点东西，要么就只能说：“就这样吧，没成。”嗯，所以我觉得，至少根据我的经验，如果人们一开始就爱上某个具体的产品解决方案，最后通常不会有什么好结果。呃，这也是我们会花很多心思去考虑的另一件事。大家通常会聊 PMF，也就是产品市场契合度；有了它，你大概就能感觉出来。我觉得这话没错。嗯，在过去一年左右的时间里，Nana Banana 在 Gemini 上爆火，Notebook LM 的播客走红，还有 Flow、Stitch 或其他一些项目出现了那种小小的爆发时刻——你就只能一窝蜂地扑上去，拼命撑住。Maybe the third thing I would say, and this one's also maybe on the flip side of your question, is like the people who get excited about things, usually we try to kind of think about what's the problem we're falling in love with, not the product. Because what I found is it takes three, four, five pivots before you either got something or you're just like that's it, didn't work. Um, so I think when people fall in love with an actual product solution first, it's going to, at least in my experience, lead to a bad time. Uh, so that's the other thing I think we try to think a lot about. And usually people talk about PMF, you sort of know it when you have it. I think that's true. Um, in the last, I don't know, year or so, when Nana Banana went viral on Gemini, when the Notebook LM podcasts have gone, when stuff's happened on Flow or Stitch or other kind of projects that have kind of had these mini moments, um, you're literally just swarming it and holding on for dear life.

这既让人筋疲力尽，又特别有趣。嗯，不过我觉得，你几乎得多尝试很多次。还有，遗憾的是，在早期阶段，感觉更多是由艺术和热情驱动，而不是由科学驱动。And it is both like so exhausting and so fun. Um, but yeah, you you almost have to take a lot of shots, I would say. And in the early days again it's it feels a little more art passion driven than than science unfortunately.

嘉宾：这些其实都是非常具体、明确的观察点。呃，眼睛——什么叫眼睛发亮？呃，我听别人描述这种情况时说，他们的瞳孔会放大。Guest: Those are actually very concrete specific things to look for. Uh the eyes what eyes light up. Uh a way I've heard someone else describe this is their pupils dilate.

主持人：是的，没错。你也知道，跟别人聊天时，你能看出来他们是不是聊得开心、是不是感兴趣，还是无聊透顶，而你却还在给他们看什么蠢产品。所以关键真的在于，你能不能触动他们。Host: Yes. That's right. And you know too right when you're talking to someone if they're having a good time, if they're into it or if they're just bored out of their mind and you're you know showing them some dumb product. So it's it's really like can you hit a nerve

嘉宾：比如说，他们生活中的某个痛点，让他们觉得“我就想要这个”。我的意思是，这正是这份工作有趣的地方：试着弄清楚你能触动多少这样的神经……Guest: with like a pain point in their life where they're just like I want that. And I mean that's what that's what makes this job so fun is trying to figure out how how many of those nerves you can

何时该放弃一个想法When to kill an idea

击中。hit.

主持人：了解了这些背景后，我们就能清楚地看出产品与市场契合的时刻——人们眼睛都亮了起来。那么，有哪些迹象表明是时候放弃一个想法了？Host: So having that context of it's clear when things are product market fitting and there's eyes are lighting up. What are signs that it's time to kill an idea?

嘉宾：是的。关于这一点，我也和团队谈了很多：有时候，团队会觉得，嘿，领导者 Nita 做决定，事情就是这么定下来的。但我发现恰恰相反。团队通常比领导者更早察觉到问题。迹象包括：热情是不是开始消退了？是不是已经试遍了能想到的办法，却还是行不通？比如，人们能看出一个项目行不通，或者一段关系出了问题；你知道，这些都是大家看得出来的。所以我想，作为领导者，我努力做的事情——比如在 Labs，或者在 Gemini 的一些功能团队里——就是创造一种环境，让大家可以提出那些令人不自在的问题，能够说：“嘿，我觉得这行不通。”举个昨天的例子，我们在 Gemini 有一项非常期待的功能，正准备发布。拿到一些早期数据后，大家出去亲自看了看，发现情况并不理想。Guest: Yeah. One of the things on this one and I talked a lot to the team about this too is sometimes a team is looking for hey the leader Nita makes makes the decision and that's kind of where it comes from. What I found is the opposite. The team usually knows before the leader knows and the signs are like does the passion start to run out? Does you've tried everything you can think of and it just it's just not working. like and people know when like a project's not working or a relationship's not working like you know that's something that people see and so I think what as a leader what I try to do say in labs or even some of our features in Gemini is like how do you create an environment where people can ask those uncomfortable questions and be able to say like hey I don't think this is working and yesterday just as an example we had a feature we were really excited about in Gemini we were going to launch and we got some of the early data back people went out looked in the eyes and it just wasn't there.

所以我为团队里的那位项目经理感到特别自豪，因为她说：「我觉得我们不该发布这个。它做得不好。」嗯，所以我回复了所有人，说：「这太棒了。谢谢你做了这件事。」嗯，所以问题在于，怎样才能营造一种氛围，让团队既能指出好的地方，也能直言不讳地指出不好的地方？我想，从这个角度来说，作为领导者，就我而言，我非常信任团队。嗯，因为每天都是他们在努力推动这件事向前发展。我觉得如果他们说：「嘿，这行不通。」那我就会说：「好吧，没关系。我们调整方向，换个做法。」And so I was so proud of the PM on the team because she was like, I don't think we should launch this. It's not good. Um, and so I replied all was like, "This is great. Thank you for doing this." Uh, and so it's like, how do you create a culture where the team can call both like good things and bad things out? And I guess in that way, as a leader, in my case, I I trust the team a lot. Um, because they're the ones every day trying to make this thing go. And I think if they're like, "Hey, it's not going." Then it's like, "All right, that's okay. Let's pivot. Let's do something different."

负责监督 Google Labs 和 Gemini 应用娱乐主管Overseeing Google Labs and the Gemini app

主持人：呃，我得问你这个问题。我本来打算晚些时候再问，但我实在太好奇了。很有意思的是，你既负责 Labs，也就是从0到1的实验，尝试全新的东西；又负责 Gemini，也就是 Gemini 应用，它可能拥有十亿用户，是全球最受欢迎的应用之一。呃，这种安排是怎么形成的？为什么你的团队会采用这种架构？Host: Uh, I have to ask you this question. I was gonna ask it later, but I'm so curious. It's so interesting that you oversee labs, which is 0ero to1 experiments, try stuff that's totally new. And then Gemini, the Gemini app, which is one of the most popular apps in the world with probably a billion users. Uh, why how did that come to be? Why is that the structure under your team?

嘉宾：是啊，是啊。嗯，我想在某些方面，它们确实处于尺度的两端。你说得对，Gemini。超过十亿用户，覆盖全球。就像……Guest: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess in some ways they are very different ends of the scale. You're right, Gemini. Over a billion users. It's global. Like

主持人：说到 Labs，你知道，我们会拿 Labs 开玩笑。有时候在早期项目，也就是从零到一的那些事上，我们会因为一万名用户而兴奋不已，但大多数其他产品的仪表盘都不会把这么低的数字算进去。所以这算是团队里的一个梗。不过我觉得，也许确实有一些共通之处，尽管规模不同。我认为第一点是，吸引来做这些事的人是什么类型。即便是 Gemini，尽管它规模很大，也仍然处处有着浓厚的从零到一的气息。所以我觉得，部分原因在于你吸引来的建造者、吸引来的是什么样的人；第二点是界限变得模糊。我们都特别痴迷 AI，简直着了迷，我们热爱这些东西，怎么都不嫌多，我们一直在开发。至于第三点，我想说，是团队里的每个人都多少带着一点这种特质。Host: labs, you know, we joke on labs. Sometimes our early projects, the zero to one stuff, you know, we we'll get so excited about 10,000 mouse and like most other products dashboards don't count that low. So this is kind of the joke on the team. But I think maybe there's a few common pieces though, even though the scale is different. I think one the type of people that are attracted to these things even Gemini despite its size is very much got a zero to one heartbeat um all over it and so I think part of it is like the type of builder the type of person you're attracting these like blurring lines between what what it takes two we're all like AI kind of nuts and maniacs we love this stuff like we we we can't get enough of it we're building all the time um the third one though I would say is like a little bit of everyone on the team.

我们稍微聊了聊我们考虑优先事项的顺序。我们团队喜欢的一句口号是：用户第一，Google 第二，我们的产品第三——也就是 Labs 第三，或者说 Gemini 第三。我觉得这也让我们团结在一起。我们不会为了自己团队的利益去做事；我们非常认同自己是 Google 团队的一员，但归根结底，还是要看产品另一端的用户是不是喜欢它。嗯，所以这确实把这一切都串联了起来。不过，按常规的规模数字来衡量，它们确实处于光谱的不同两端。We talk a little bit about like the order of how we think about our priorities and we like the mantra on the team is like users first, Google second and like our product third and so like labs third or Gemini third and I think that unites us too and that's like we don't try to do things like for our own team we're very much part of team Google but also ultimately it's like is someone loving this on the end other end of this product? Um, and so that does kind of tie it all together, but they are on Yeah. different ends of the spectrum for sure on terms of size like conventional numbers.

主持人：嗯，作为外行确实挺让人困惑的，不过我明白了。呃，你们现在在实验室做的所有事情都基于 AI 吗？实验室里现在还有什么不是由 AI 驱动的吗？Host: Yeah, it's quite confusing as an outsider, but I get it. Um, is is everything you're doing in labs now AI based? Is there anything non AI driven in labs now?

嘉宾：是的，嗯，现在肯定完全由 AI 驱动。我们刚开始的时候，你知道，大概是四五年前，还在探索其他几个方向，后来我们决定，至少在可预见的未来，全力投入 AI。不过我们做的不只是软件。我的意思是，Google Beam 就是我们正在做的项目之一，它有点像一面不可思议的魔镜，可以生成一个 3D 版本。我们应该送你一台。嗯，我是说，你可以通过它和另一个人交谈，感觉几乎就像对方是全息影像一样。是的。呃，所以我们也在探索一些与 AI 相邻的其他领域，比如你可以把它看作某种 AI 硬件。我愿意收下。谢谢，我把地址发给你。Guest: Yeah, it's um it's all AI driven right now for sure. when we started, you know, four or five years ago, we had a few other areas we were exploring and we kind of made the call, at least for the foreseeable future, go allin um on AI. We we don't just do software stuff though. I mean, Google Beam is one of the projects we're working on is like this incredible kind of magic mirror that kind of can create like a 3D version. We should get you one. Um I'll take where you can kind of talk to someone almost like they're a hologram on the other side. Yeah. Uh so we are we're exploring kind of other adjacent things to AI like you know you could consider that almost like AI hardware in a way. I I will take it. Thank you. I'll send you my address.

下一波消费级 AI 突破成就Next consumer AI breakthroughs

所以我觉得，现在面向消费者的领域正处在一个特别有意思的阶段。过去一直有种说法，觉得消费级产品已经没戏了，没什么可做的了。Facebook、Google 这些巨头已经占据了整个消费市场，你知道，根本没法跟它们竞争。但 AI 感觉正在为消费级产品带来很多机会。我很好奇，你认为下一个重大突破可能会出现在什么样的消费级应用中？So it feels like consumer right now is in a really fun place where there's always been the sense of like consumer's dead. There's nothing you can do. Facebook got Google, you know, like there there's no way to compete against these juggernauts that have taken the consumer world. But AI feels like it's unlocking a lot of opportunity in consumer. I'm curious what your hypothesis is for where the next where a major breakthrough might happen in a consumer app.

主持人：是的，我觉得消费领域是眼下最令人兴奋、竞争最激烈的领域之一。所以从那个角度来看，我的感受完全相反。嗯，我觉得有几个方面挺有意思。我的意思是，首先，我觉得有个很大的问题——我们之前稍微聊过，娱乐接下来会走向何方？嗯，我们会永远都在看各种不同类型的信息流吗？还是说，这项技术能让我们在现实世界中更亲近，或者让我们和其他人一起做些事情？我的意思是，关于未来可能的发展方向，人们有不同的看法。它会更多围绕机器人，还是更多围绕人？嗯，所以我觉得这是个非常有意思的领域。嗯，我觉得就在我们眼前，整个消息和聊天领域似乎曾让人觉得：嘿，这块可能已经算是解决了。Host: Yeah, I I feel like consumer is one of the most like exciting competitive all the things happening right now. So it feels completely opposite to me uh from that kind of view. Um a couple of areas I think that are kind of interesting. I mean, one, I think there's a big question, we talked a little bit earlier of just like where's entertainment going to go? Um, are we going to be looking at like different types of feeds forever or are there ways that this technology can bring us maybe closer together in the real world or do things with other people? I mean, there's different views on where that could go. Is it like more around bots or more around people? Um, and so I think that's a very interesting space. Um I think we're watching right before us now like the entire kind of messaging chat space felt like hey that was sort of maybe solved.

目前，谷歌内部和外部都在围绕这个方向进行各种实验。嗯，所以我觉得这可能是另一个领域，它也许不像以前感觉的那么确定了。嗯，我想第三点是，我还是觉得应该回到这些问题上来：人们在这个世界上面临哪些重大难题？我觉得，嗯，你知道，有哪些东西特别稀缺？比如人们在世上的时间、拥有多少钱，以及如何省钱。还有这类回忆，或者人们能在现实生活中一起拥有的体验之类的。所以我确实觉得，也许可以打造一些新的消费类产品来解决其中很多问题。至于它会采用什么形式——聊天机器人、个人智能助理，还是别的什么——我觉得在很多方面都还有待发明。There's lots of different experiments happening on that right now both inside Google and outside. Um so that feels like a whole another area that maybe is like no longer as fixed as it once felt. Um, and then maybe the third one I would throw out is I still feel like going back again to the problems like what are some of the big problems people face in the world? And I think like um you know what are things that are super scarce? Time on earth, how much money people have and how they can save money. Um these kind of memories or like experiences that people can have kind of IRL together and that kind of thing. So I do feel like there's maybe like new consumer products to be built uh that can go after a lot of that stuff that you know whether it takes the form factor of a a chatbot or a personal agent or whatever that's going to look like I think is kind of yet to be invented in a lot of ways.

主持人：好。我来问你一个有点犀利的问题。Host: Okay. Let me ask you a spicy question

Google 对个人助理的愿景Google’s vision for a personal assistant

类似这样的方向。我特别想听听你的看法。感觉现在推出的每一款 AI 助手应用，基本上都会接入 Gmail、Google 日历和文档，也就是所有 Google 数据——这些很有用的 Google 内容——然后在 Google 生态里用它们做各种神奇的事情。我却做不了这些事。要做出任何类似的东西都太难了。首先，就我看来，你们可能在做 AI 助手，但目前还没看到有什么成果。总的来说，感觉大家都拿这些很有用的数据做各种神奇的事情，唯独 Google 没有。是什么让你们一直没做这类事情？是隐私方面的顾虑吗？是工作流程或者官僚作风的问题吗？还是这件事已经在推进了？你们能说说吗？along these lines. I'm so curious to get your take. So, it feels like every every uh AI assistant app that's launching these days basically sucks in Gmail and Google Calendar and Docs, all the Google data, all this juicy Google stuff. Uh connects and does all these magical things with it within Google. I cannot do any of these things. It's so hard to build anything uh like there's first of all, you may be working on AI assistant, but there's nothing there yet as far as I can see. And then just generally it feels like everyone's just taken all this juicy data and doing magical things with it and Google hasn't. What is what's kept you guys from doing something like that? Is like privacy concerns? Is it works bureaucracy stuff? Is it coming? What what can you say?

嘉宾：是的，是的，是的。所以，嗯，现在已经有一些相关功能了，比如你在 Gemini 里使用 Gemini Spark，就可以把所有这些东西连接起来，而且功能相当强大。不过我觉得，我们在这方面不断改进的方向是：过去我们一直处在这样一个阶段，即便看看其他一些竞争对手，也会发现他们几乎都有不同的模式，需要你进入相应模式。我觉得，光是过去几周的经验就告诉我们，别管什么模式和开关了，只要一个提示框，你告诉它想要什么，它就会帮你把事情办好。所以，这绝对是我们未来的发展方向，其他人也在朝这个方向发展。我觉得，这算是整个行业正在发生的一种更广泛的用户体验简化。嗯，关于数据这部分，嗯，挺有意思的，因为人们经常会给我或其他人发消息说：“天啊，Google，我所有东西都放在你们这儿了。”Guest: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So um there's parts of it out there today like if you're in Gemini in Gemini Spark, you can actually connect all that stuff and it's quite powerful. I think where we're iterating on that though is we've been in a world where even if you look at some of the other competitors there different modes almost that you go into and I think the lesson even from the last couple of weeks is forget the modes and toggles just like one prompt box tell it what you want and it just does stuff for you. So that that's definitely where not only where we're headed where others are are headed. I think that's kind of a broader almost like UX simplification happening across the industry. Um on the the data bits there, um it's interesting because actually one of the main things uh people will ping me about or others is like, "Oh man, Google, I've got all my stuff with you.

“只要把这东西弄好用就行。”嗯，实际上，大家都很不愿意把它连接到很多其他竞品上。所以，敬请期待。我们完全听到了大家的声音。嗯，如果你上网搜一下“个人智能”，就会看到我们大致是怎么思考这件事的：你希望有一个个性化、主动、强大的 Gemini，能为你效劳。这就是过去一年左右我们一直以来的愿景，也是我们正在努力实现的方向。我们现在正在尝试很多东西，其中不少很快就会推出。Just make the thing work." Um and there's a lot of reluctance actually to be connecting it to a lot of other sort of competitor products. So watch this space. we hear you loud and clear. Um, there's a lot of work if you go online and just look under kind of personal intelligence is sort of the way we think about this stuff is like you want a Gemini that is personal, proactive, powerful um that sort of works for you. And so that that's been the vision uh for the last kind of year or so uh that we're we're headed towards. And there's a lot of stuff we're playing with right now that'll be will be out soon.

主持人：好吧，我很兴奋。感觉我的邮箱里有好多小日程和各种东西在运行。我就在想，天啊，Google 怎么没做这个呢？嗯，感觉你们的优势在于分发能力。所以，一旦有类似 Muse 最近那样的事情发生，产品就会很容易发展起来，也很容易说服大家去用，和 AI 模式里的情况差不多。总之，好吧，我很兴奋。事情正在发生，肯定正在发生。Host: All right. I'm excited. It just feels like yeah like I have so many little schedules and things running within my email. I'm just like man why why didn't Google just doing this? Uh it does does feel that the advantage you all have is distribution. So once something happens similar to Muse recently it's going to be very easy to grow it and convince people to use it similar uh to you know within like AI mode. So anyway okay I'm excited. Things are happening. Things are definitely happening.

当下 AI 领域哪些被过度炒作，哪些又被低估了？What is overhyped and underhyped in AI right now

你怎么看？也算是换了个话题吧。你觉得现在 AI 领域有什么被低估了？又有什么被过度炒作了——如果有的话？What do you think? So kind of going a different direction. What do you think's uh underhyped in AI right now and what do you think is overhyped if anything is overhyped?

嘉宾：哦，是啊，是啊。嗯，你知道吗，整个夏天我都在想哪些话题被讨论得不够多。后来我在公司内部写了一份文档，主要谈实验室的原则，比如我们为什么要打造现在这些东西，以及我们究竟是怎么决定要打造什么的。所以，也许讨论得不够多的话题，就是围绕原则和价值观展开的讨论。我坚信，无论你是在谷歌工作、创办初创公司，还是处于两者之间的任何位置，你都是通过自己的产品表达观点的，而产品实际上也体现着、甚至承载着这些原则。所以我希望业界能更多地讨论这件事，以及我们想打造什么样的东西、想要什么样的未来。呃，总之，这就是我觉得讨论得不够多的话题。嗯，因为我觉得，是啊，这方面的讨论可以更多一些。Guest: Oh yeah. Yeah. Um you know underhyped I I was thinking a lot about this over the summer. I ended up writing kind of a doc internally just around like labs principles of like how and almost like why are we building what we build? And so maybe the underhyped thing is more of a discussion around principles, values, sort of I I believe very strongly whether you're at Google or a startup founder or anywhere in between, you you speak through your products and your products actually represent and almost encode those principles. And so I wish there was a lot more discussion in the industry happening around that. Um and sort of what what kinds of things do we want to build? what kind of future do we want? Uh so anyway, that would be my underhyped one. Um because I think uh yeah, there could be more of that.

我觉得被过度吹捧的东西，嗯，我想我可能已经这么说了一年了，但我还是觉得它被过度吹捧了：模型基准测试。嗯，你知道，很多朋友、很多实验室，基本上大家还是在看同一批基准测试。但我想，嗯，你知道，从我成长的地方、我的出身，以及我看待产品开发的方式来说，世界上大多数人永远、永远、永远都不会在意 ELO 评分。他们可能连 ELO 怎么念都不知道。这就像，知道吗？这根本不重要。所以我总会回到这样一点：我觉得当下 AI 领域里的很多讨论都围绕着速度、吞吐量和基准测试展开。显然，这些都是用来衡量现状和能力的替代指标。但我还是觉得，有时候整个行业会在这方面过于用力，以至于忽略了这样的问题：这对某个人来说到底有什么用？什么样的产品或功能才能真正带来价值，帮助人们？I think the overhyped one um I think I've been saying this maybe for a year now, but I still think it's overhyped. Model benchmarks. And I still uh you know, a lot of friends and a lot of labs and everyone's still looking at the same set of benchmarks for the most part. Um, but I think um, you know, where I'm grew up and where I'm from and I guess how I think about product development is like most people in the world are never ever ever going to care about an ELO rating. They may not even know how to pronounce ELO. It's like, do you know what? Like it just doesn't matter. And so that's where I kind of get back to kind of like a lot of I feel like the talk in AI right now is about speeds and feeds and benchmarks and these are proxies obviously for kind of where things are and capabilities and but I still feel like sometimes as an industry it can kind of over over rotate to that and kind of lose sight of like why is this useful to someone and what's like the product or the feature that's going to deliver like real value to like help people.

总之，这些就是我认为的大小分盘口。So anyway, those would be my overunders.

主持人：是的，而且这也属于同一类问题。总是很难判断什么更好。比如你怎么知道到底发生了什么？你有了一个新模型，说它是有史以来最好的模型。可实际用起来，它跟之前那个大家也都觉得是有史以来最好的模型，差别并没有那么大。每次发布模型，我们都说通用人工智能来了。我们现在有通用人工智能了。基准测试就是想告诉你它在哪些方面更强。但如果你……你就只是坐在那里，想着：好吧，还行。这个更好。我喜欢它在这方面的表现。对，我觉得这也是为什么很多关注你、听你说话的人会说：拜托，拜托，拜托，想想能做出什么了不起的产品吧。因为归根结底，所有这些模型能力、基准测试和智能，最终都要转化成一个问题：你能不能做出人们想要的东西？所以在我看来，作为一个产品人，能活在这个时代真是太棒了，因为你面前就像摆着一大堆过去几乎不可能实现、如今却越来越能实现的东西，而且每过一周，就会有更多东西变得可能。Host: Yeah. And it's also along those lines. It's always it's also hard to know what what what is better. Like how do you know what what's going on? Like you have this new model. It's the best model ever. It's like in practice it's not that much different than the previous model that also everyone thought was the best model ever. We have AGI every every time there's a model launch. We have AGI now. And so like the benchmarks like are trying to show you here's where it's better. But but if you didn't like you're just sitting there. Okay. This is okay. This is better. I like what it's doing here. Yeah, I think this is also though where um I feel like a lot of folks that like follow you and listen to you is like please please please think of amazing products like because ultimately all these model capabilities and benchmarks and all the intelligence gets translated into just like can you build something people want and so to me it's like what a time to be alive as a product person um because you have kind of this like huge menu of things that were almost possible that are now possible more and more with each passing week.

你刚才提到的第一个，呃，观点，是最近在一次和 OpenAI 的 Tara 谈话中聊到的事情：现在我们似乎什么都能造出来，而且 AI 对未来该往哪个方向发展有很多看法。你说得完全对，关键在于：我们想要一个什么样的世界？我们想要的未来愿景是什么？而不是说，好的，我们能做这些事，太棒了——也许我们其实没必要做所有这些事。The first uh point you made there was u something that came up recently with a uh in a conversation with Tara from OpenAI about how now that we could just build everything and AI has so many opinions about where to go. What you said is exactly right which is what do we want the world to look like? What do we want the what is the vision of the future we want not okay we can do all these things that's great let's maybe we don't need to do all these things

嘉宾：没错Guest: right

主持人：所以我觉得这是个非常重要的观点。是的，绝对是。绝对是。Host: so I think that's a really important point there. Yeah, definitely. Definitely.

嘉宾：本季的赞助商是 DX。现在，你们公司里的每个人终于都在使用 AI 了，工程领导者面临的问题不再是“我们是否在使用 AI”，而是“它是否带来了成效”？借助 DX，你可以衡量并对标 AI 在整个产品生命周期中的应用成效。DX 能让你了解 AI 在哪些方面帮助了开发者，又在哪些方面造成了新的瓶颈。你还可以用它来评估 AI 供应商、监控成本和许可证，并准确找出限制你的智能体发挥作用的因素。这就是为什么包括 Snowflake、Sony 和 BNY 在内的数百家企业都在使用 DX 平台，衡量 AI 对开发者生产力的影响。访问 getdx.com/lenny，预约 DX 演示。网址是 getddx.com/lenny。Guest: This season's supporting sponsor is DX. Now that everybody at your company is finally using AI, the question that engineering leaders face is no longer are we using AI, but is it paying off? With DX, you can measure and benchmark the impact of AI adoption across your full product life cycle. DX shows you where AI is helping developers and where it's creating new bottlenecks. You can also use it to evaluate AI vendors, monitor costs and licenses, and see exactly what's limiting your agents. That's why hundreds of enterprises, including Snowflake, Sony, and BNY, use the DX platform to measure AI's impact on developer productivity. Visit getdx.com/lenny to get a demo of DX. That's getddx.com/lenny.

价值日益提升的技能：快速摒弃旧知、爆发力耐力、信任Skills rising in value: unlearning rate, explosive endurance, trust

你发现，在你合作的人当中，哪些技能的价值正在上升？而当你观察如今表现出色的人时，你觉得哪些技能的价值正在下降？这些人的特质和技能是什么？与之相比，哪些东西现在可能没那么重要了？What skills are you finding are trending up in value in the people that you're working with and what do you feel are trending down when you look at people are doing really well now? What are the kind of the attributes and skills of those people versus things that are maybe less important now?

主持人：是的，我觉得关于品味、判断力、氛围编程等等，外面已经有很多讨论了。我想我一直在寻找的是那些定价有偏差的信号。比如，有时我们会听人谈论某人的学习速度——他们有没有成长型思维，学习速度怎么样？而我现在其实很关注人们“摒弃旧知”的速度：他们学会某样东西之后，能多快地放下它——比如根据他们测试产品时看到的情况之类的。“摒弃旧知的速度”是一个。嗯，另一个让我感兴趣的是，大概一年前我读过一本关于了不起的网球运动员罗杰·费德勒的书，里面有个说法，说费德勒拥有爆发式耐力。Host: Yeah, I feel like there's a whole lot out there on taste and judgment and vibe coding and all of that. I guess the things I'm looking for I'm always trying to find like what are the mispriced signals and so like one I think is um how we'll hear sometimes people talk about like what's someone's like learning rate like do they have a growth mindset what's their learning rate I'm actually looking a lot right now for people what's their unlearning rate like how fast can they learn something and then walk away from it um based on maybe what they're seeing when they test their product or something. unlearning rate is one. Um, another one I'm interested in, I read a book a year or so ago, um, about Roger Federer, the amazing tennis player, and there was this phrase in there about Federer had explosive endurance.

这只是一种很美妙的措辞，嗯，还有头韵之类的，但我觉得其中有些东西是关于人们如何照顾自己和身边的人，让他们能够全力以赴——这就是那种爆发力所在——同时又能坚持一段时间，并找到办法调整节奏。我们在实验室里也会有一些这样的主题讨论季，所以我觉得，那种爆发式的耐力、这种卸下旧习的速度……嗯，我还想说另一点：尽管你知道，编程和其他事情的发展趋势可能是让你能够指挥很多智能体，而不必和那么多人协作，但我仍然觉得，协作能力以及你如何与人共事，现在反而更加重要了。嗯，我们非常看重的一点是，一个人能否融合并连接这两个领域：既能出色地与一个智能体或一群智能体协作，也能与人合作。It's just this beautiful turn of phrase and uh with the alliteration everything but it's like there there's something around like how are people taking care of themselves and the people around them where they can go really hard and that's the like explosive part but they can do it over a while and they find ways to kind of pace themselves and labs we have kind of you know we have like seasons of labs where we talk about this so I think that explosive endurance this unlearning rate Um, and then maybe another one I would say is like as much as you know coding and other things are becoming maybe trending towards like you being able to direct lots of agents and not having to work with as many people. I still feel like collaboration and like how you work with people matters even more now. And um one of the things we look a lot for is like can someone kind of blend and bridge these worlds where they're like incredible collaborator with an agent or a swarm of agents but also with people.

我想，Labs 团队和 Gemini 团队都相信，和人一起工作仍然能带来很多乐趣。但关键是，怎么找到合得来的人？我想说的一点是，能够建立信任、让信任不断扩展的人，才是各种出色协作的基础。所以，我一直在留意的另一个信号可能是：这个人能多快和别人建立信任，并营造出那样的氛围——如果我这么说你能明白的话。And I guess what we believe on the labs team and on the Gemini team is that like there's still just so much joy in working with people. And so like but it's like how do you find the right chemistry? And so maybe one thing I'd say there is like people that can build trust, that can scale trust, that that underpins any kind of great collaboration. And so that's another maybe signal I'm always looking for is like how fast can this person kind of build trust with people uh and sort of create that kind of environment if that makes sense.

嘉宾：是的，这些都很有意思。关于最后一个问题，这是不是一种随着人工智能兴起而日益增长、甚至变得更加重要的技能？我很好奇这是为什么。Guest: Yeah, these are so interesting. on that last one is that is that kind of a mer a growing emerging even more important skill you finding with rise of AI and I'm curious why

主持人：我觉得是这样，有几个原因。我的意思是，我想其中一个可能是，这在某种程度上是 Google 独有的：它是一个规模更大的组织，所以你必须能够做到这一点。不过，另一些感觉并不是 Google 独有的。嗯，第一，随着打造产品的执行成本降低，我们就能做出更多产品。你可能还是会用同一批人做同样的产品，但我觉得还有很多其他可能性，你大概也看得到：人们会和不同的人组队做东西。所以，想想我们如何为一个 Labs 项目组建新团队，这就很有意思。以前我们会说大概需要五到七个人。现在大概只要两到三个人，嗯，也许四个。但有点像是，那些人就像才华横溢的音乐家，和不同的人组队，然后一起演奏不同的曲子。Host: I think so for a couple of reasons I mean I would say one maybe is like uniquely Google it's a larger organization so you've got to be able to kind of do that but the ones that don't feel uniquely Google um one it feels like as the execution cost of making products goes down we'll be able to make more products which you may make the same products with the same people but I think there's a lot more you probably see this too is just like uh people will team up with different people to make stuff. And so it's very interesting when we're thinking about like almost like fielding a new team for a labs project. We used to say like it's about five to seven people. Now it's about two to three people. Uh maybe four. Uh but it's kind of like those people just kind of almost you can almost imagine like super talented musicians who team up with different people and then they play different songs together.

产品团队就是这样，他们就像实验室里的 MVP：你可以找来这种产品经理，但他也能写代码、做设计，因为所有角色都在和其他人的角色逐渐融合。你也能看看他们如何一起合作、碰撞想法。所以我认为，我的预测是，这项技能的重要性甚至会越来越高，因为产品会越来越多，也会有更多这种自由职业者聚在一起碰撞想法。The songs of the products but it's like that is like those are the MVPs in labs where you can be like hey drop this sort of PM but that can also code and design because all the roles are blurring with kind of other people and kind of see how they jam on stuff together. So I think that's where my prediction is that skill will almost increase in importance uh because there will be more products and because there'll be more of this kind of like free agents kind of jamming on stuff

为什么这些角色没有模糊成一个通用的构建者角色Why roles are not blurring into one universal builder role

一起。together.

嘉宾：顺着这个话题，我想你们一直在把设计师、工程师、NPM 拉进实验室，让他们一起协作，有时由不同职能的人来牵头。你们有没有发现，在带领产品创意实验室团队方面，最有影响力、最成功的人选发生了变化？比如说，就 NGE 而言，产品经理和设计师的比例有没有变化？我们的产品经理是不是变得更有价值了，或者类似这样的情况？Guest: Along those lines I imagine you have been pulling designers, engineers, npms into labs and they kind of all kind of work together and sometimes different functions take leads. Is there has there been a shift in who you find is most uh impactful and successful in leading product ideas labs teams in terms of the ratio of PM versus design for NGE for example like our PM's becoming more valuable or becoming more valuable something like that?

主持人：是的，这挺有意思的。我们一直在深入研究这件事，实际上也做了很多测试。嗯，总的来说，我想说，产品经理这个职能可能天生就比较横向，所以或许能比其他职能更快地适应这些变化。我们在公司各处开展一些小规模的构建者试点时也能看到这一点。嗯，得到的反馈大概是：“哦，是的。”我不想说这更容易，但产品经理可能更习惯于这样：好，我现在参加这个会议，得模拟一下自己是律师、业务拓展人员或者销售人员。你懂我的意思吧？所以我觉得，某种程度上，这可能和哪些人会选择进入这个职能有内在联系。这一点确实如此。不过我想说，我们最优秀的人才可能来自任何职能。Host: Yeah, it's interesting. We've been studying this a lot and actually testing a lot of this too. Um, I would say in general, PM happens to be the function maybe by nature because it's a bit more horizontal. That feels like it's maybe been able to adapt to some of the other functions faster. Uh, and we see this when we'll run little builder pilots across the company. Um, that comes back is like, oh yeah, that that's like maybe I don't want to say it's easier, but maybe it's PMs are more accustomed to like, all right, I'm in this meeting. I got to simulate something as a lawyer or as a BD person or as a sales, do you know what I mean? So like I think in some way maybe there's some inherentness and like who selects into that. So that definitely is true. But I would say um our best people can kind of come from any function.

虽然我也想把这个范围再扩大一些，Lenny，我们看到战略和运营人员、BD人员、营销人员，都开始像实验室里的构建者一样做事，而且他们做得非常好。我觉得这可能又是一个被过度炒作、同时又被低估的话题。我认为现在大家可能有点过度吹捧“人人都是构建者”这个说法，好像这就是一种全新的职能，所有事情都变得差不多了。但我觉得，至少从我们看到的情况来说，每个人仍然有自己的专长，就像他们在大学里的主修或辅修专业之类的。我觉得，如果人人都成了构建者，就有可能失去对各个专业的尊重和重视，当然也会忽视这些专业所积累的专业知识。所以我认为，在组建团队时，即使我们可能会说这是一个更偏构建者的团队，我们仍然会考虑各自的专长在哪里，而这一点最终也非常重要。And though I would also even widen it, Lenny, we're seeing like strategy and ops people and BD people and marketing people, you know, kind of be like builders in labs and they are really good and u I think what maybe this is another overhyped underhyped thing. I think right now um people are maybe overhyping like everybody's a builder and it's just this new job function and everything's kind of the same. I actually feel like well at least what we're seeing is that people still have their specialty. It's like their major or minor in college or something. And I feel like there's a risk if everybody becomes a builder that you lose a lot of respect and appreciation and obviously the expertise that comes from those specialties. And so I think when we set up teams, even though we may be like this is more of like a builder crew, we're still thinking about like where are the specialties and that ends up being super important as well.

嘉宾：我完全同意。你知道，就像，没错，我喜欢这个。我喜欢“主修和辅修”这个比喻。这是个很有趣的思考方式。就像，你可能更擅长构建东西，但你的 PM 技能仍然是你的主要强项，是你最擅长的。Guest: I completely agree. You know, like Yeah, I like that. I like this metaphor of the major and minor. That's a really fun way to think about it. Like you can be better at building, but you're still your like your PM skills are still like the primary thing you're amazing at.

主持人：当然。我觉得，我们给团队里很多新晋 PM（比如 APM）或职业生涯还处于早期阶段的人提出的建议尤其是：你在进行 vibe coding、制作各种原型，这很好，但要把这些事作为成为一名出色、卓越的 PM 的助力。别忘了这个核心方向——尤其是在职业生涯早期，你需要打磨的正是这方面的能力。Host: Definitely. And I think that's the advice we give especially to a lot of new PMs on the teams like APMs or people earlier in their career is it's great you're vi coding and you're making all these prototypes but do that in service of becoming an exceptional extraordinary PM and like don't lose that major like that's what you need to hone uh especially when you're early on.

嘉宾：我很喜欢你对这件事的描述：产品经理很擅长模拟其他职能的思维方式。Guest: I love the way you described it where PMs are really good at simulating other functions

主持人：比如一种 AI 思维方式，例如……Host: such as like an AI way of thinking about

嘉宾：是的。是的。合作中Guest: Yeah. Yeah. collaborating

主持人：还有这种爆发性耐力的概念。呃，最近有人发推问：“既是马拉松又是短跑，这叫什么？”Host: and this idea of explosive endurance. Uh someone tweeted this recently. They're like what's what's so called when it's both a marathon and a sprint.

嘉宾：就像是在跟罗杰·费德勒聊天一样。对，对。Guest: It's that like talk to Roger Federer. Yeah. Yeah.

主持人：我觉得现在每个人都处于这种状态。这一直是这档播客里的一个主题和趋势，也是当下科技行业的普遍现象：每个人都在马拉松式长跑和短跑冲刺模式之间切换。Host: And I feel like everyone's in that right now. That's just like a constant theme and trend on this podcast and just in tech right now is just everyone's in this marathon plus sprint mode.

爆发性耐力节奏Explosive endurance rhythms

客人：是的。嗯。Guest: Yes. Yeah.

主持人：天哪，我想问，你会做些什么来帮助人们应对这种情况吗？感觉这简直没完没了。Host: Man, I guess is there anything that you do to help people deal with that because it feels like it's non-stop.

嘉宾：是的，是的，我的意思是，我们努力做的一件事——我之前稍微提过一点，现在可以展开讲讲——就是我们会把实验室的运作想成有不同的阶段。比如说，在任何一个时间点，可能都有二三十个实验同时在进行；但对于每个小团队，我们会试着为工作设定一些里程碑，或者形成一定的节奏。有时候工作确实会非常紧张、全力以赴。作为领导者，我学到的或许最重要的一课，就是要把这种状态明确说出来、讲清楚，让大家自愿选择加入或退出。同时，也要非常清楚地说明团队什么时候并不处于这种状态。我觉得关键在于，如何为一年设计出一种节奏，比如说：“嘿，我们马上要推出一个大型模型了。”Guest: Yeah. Yeah, I mean one of the things we try to do and I mentioned it a little bit earlier but I can unpack it some is like we think of kind of like seasons in labs and like can we think about you know at any given point there's 20 or 30 experiment you know running simultaneously but for each individual little team trying to kind of create a little bit of like milestones or like a rhythm to the work and there's sometimes like it is just flat out fullon and we try to maybe the best lesson I've learned as a leader is almost to sort of name that, declare that, you know, people opt in or opt out of that. Um, but also be very clear when a team is not in that mode. And I think is like how do you try to architect almost like a a rhythm to the year where it's like, hey, we've got a big model coming.

这五款产品对于展示这个模型至关重要。我们认为这个模型会推动它们的发展。比如 U5，它正处于爆发期。你明白我的意思吗？These five products are super important to showcase this model. We think this model will propel them. Like U5 is like it is explosive time. Do you know what I mean?

嗯，所以这就像是在努力围绕这件事建立一种共同语言。在很多方面，这有时能让项目经理（PM）非常有效地发挥作用：他们可以想出一种简写方式，或者一种共同语言。所以我们其实也花了很多心思琢磨这件事，比如，好吧，你们现在都在做什么。而在他们经历完那一阶段之后，比如 Google I/O 结束后，很多 Labs 团队会在 I/O 后冲刺一阵。到了六月，大家就会说：“去折腾吧，重新发现有什么新东西，去做点东西，尽情玩！”这事真的很有意思，Lenny，因为人的本能，或者说那种冲动，会让人觉得：“天啊，都六月了，这样是不是没效率？我们又没在交付东西。”但其实不是，下一阶段所有的新想法都是从那时候萌生的，你懂我的意思吗？所以，努力想清楚这种节奏该怎么安排，是我们尝试采用的一种做法。不过，顺便说一句，我不觉得我们总能做对。我想，我们团队最近常聊的一件事是：过去大家会谈论“工作与生活的平衡”，而这场讨论也曾以其他方式展开。Um and so it's like trying to create a common language around that which is sometimes in a lot of ways like PMs sometimes can be very effective if they can come up with like what is the sort of shorthand or the common language and so we we actually put a lot of thought into that too of like all right you all are on right now whereas after they go through that we may be like say after like a Google IO a lot of labs teams will sprint after IO June is like hey just go hack go rediscover what's new go just go build like have fun and then it's so interesting Lenny because the instinct or the like temptation is like oh man it's June it's like unproductive we're not shipping and it's like no actually those are where all the new seeds are coming from for like the next season do you know what I mean and so it's like trying to think through the rhythm of that is is one way we try to do it I don't think we always get it right though by the way I think and I think one of the things we're talking a lot on the team is I guess in the past people would talk about like work life balance and there were other ways this conversation got framed.

我想，这就是为什么我喜欢“爆发力耐力”之类的东西，或者类似的理念：我们希望作为一个团队，一起做这件事很多很多年。所以你不能只顾着在九个月里耗尽所有精力，把自己累垮，对吧？所以，你既要着眼长远，也要意识到眼下的节奏很快。I think what we're why I like things like explosive endurance or concepts like that is like we want to be doing this as a team for many many years. And so it's like you can't just like empty the tank in 9 months and just like kill yourself, right? So it's like you have to you have to have a view towards the long term but also recognize the moment you're in is is fast.

主持人：我很喜欢直接给它命名这个策略，这样做很有力量，也能清楚表明我们现在进入了这种模式。Host: I love the tactic of just naming it, having a lot of power and just making it clear this is the mode we're in now.

规划方式的变化：滚动时间窗口与 100 天里程碑How planning has changed: rolling windows and 100-day milestones

不会一直这样下去。won't be forever.

嘉宾：对。对。Guest: Right. Right.

主持人：我还发现，反过来也同样危险。当你无事可做、压力太小，也没有踩足油门时，人们就会感到无聊，开始找别的工作。他们只会觉得：“这太糟了。”Host: And something I found is the opposite also is too is dangerous. When you have too little to do and too little stress and too little pedal on the metal, people get bored and start looking for other jobs. They're just like this sucks.

嘉宾：是。是。是。我觉得，嗯，总会有一些机会在那里。你说得对。我们团队会稍微聊聊，比如绝不能浪费一次活动或一个日期；或者就算你是一家初创公司，也可以想想，你想在什么时候与世界上的某件事产生交集。嗯，你知道，对我们来说，那可能是 Google I/O、模型发布之类的。我觉得经常想想这些总是有好处的。前几天有人问我 Gemini 的事，他们问：“我们的两年路线图是什么？”我就说：“呃，我们这个项目有一份六个月的路线图。我们有一个多年期的愿景，但我觉得世界变化也太快了。”有些事情是这样的：我两天前看到的东西，现在已经成了一个在 48 小时内完成的项目。你没法以某种方式提前规划好这一切，所以另一个要素就是，你几乎得学会当下就意识到这一点。Guest: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's um there's always something there though. You're right. of like we we talk on the team a little bit of like never waste an event or like a date or you you can think about even as a startup like where's that moment you want to intersect with something in the world and um you know whether that for us is a Google IO or a model release or whatever I think that's always healthy to be thinking about I got a question the other day on Gemini they're like what what's our two-year roadmap and I was like uh we have a six-month road mapap on this thing like we have a multi-year vision but I think they the the world has changed so much too. Some of it is like the thing I saw two days ago is now a project that happened in 48 hours. You you can't plan for that in a way and so that's the other element you almost have to recognize in the moment.

主持人：是的。顺着这个话题，过去几年里，规划方式发生了哪些变化？你们和 Google 其他团队不太一样，因为你们的一切都是新的。那么，随着 AI 的兴起，你们在规划时看到时间线和时间范围发生了怎样的变化？是的，我们通常会考虑大约六个月的时间跨度。我这么说，通常是因为那差不多是一个可行的时间窗口：你会假设每个实验室一年会推出几次新的预预训练模型。中间还会有一些单独的节点。所以你大致会形成一种整体节奏，了解模型进展到什么阶段；然后我觉得，我们通常还会设想，大约一百天内，怎样才能让产品取得实质性的进展。Host: Yeah. So along those lines, how has planning changed in the past couple years? Like you guys are different from the rest of Google because everything is new and but just what have you seen in terms of timelines and time frames shift in planning with the rise of AI? Yeah, we usually are thinking, you know, somewhere on the order of about six months. And usually I say that because that's that almost possible window where, you know, you assume every lab is cranking out some new pre pre-training model a couple times a year. There's like individual points in between. So you kind of have an overall cadence of like where the models are and then I think we're almost imagining in about a hundred days usually we always think about where can you move your product like meaningfully forward.

嗯，我们最优秀的实验室团队都是这么做的：从一个想法到取得某个有意义的里程碑，大概只需要 50 到 100 天。这其中一部分还在于，如何设计一种文化和环境，扫清各种障碍，让大家可以放手去做。所以，另一方面就是营造这样的环境。而我们考虑规划时，通常会采用大约六个月的滚动规划——这大概算是回答了你的问题。um our best labs team all they all do that they'll go from like idea to some meaningful milestone in like 50 to 100 days and part of that is also like how do you design a culture and an environment where you unblock a lot of stuff so you can just let people cook and so that's the that's the other part of is like kind of creating that environment but that we think about planning is kind of almost like rolling six months maybe is to answer your question

实验室生命周期阶段Labs lifecycle stages

嘉宾：我上周参加了 Lenny and Friends 峰会——也就是我们录制这期节目这一周的前一周。Dan Shipper 做了一个特别有意思的演讲，谈的是如何在技术不断变化的情况下打造产品。他的建议是组建一支专门探索前沿技术的团队，让他们负责尝试各种新东西，并汇报哪些事情值得我们关注。这样公司其他人就不用分心，可以专注于手头的工作。你觉得这种模式适合公司吗？Guest: so I had this uh Lenny and friends summit it was uh last week of the today we're recording this and Dan Shipper gave this really interesting talk about how to build where the tech is just constantly changing underneath you and his advice is to have a frontier team that's dedicated to testing out the new stuff and basically it's their job try all the new stuff report on what we need to pay attention to so that the rest of the company can not have to be distracted and focus on on you know the task at hand how do you feel about that as a model for companies

主持人：我觉得每家公司都肯定需要一群人、一个团队——不管你想怎么描述都行——他们的工作就是走在前沿。他们几乎得做到：如果过去 24 小时里 X 上最新的热门话题都没听说过，就会让人忍不住问：“你上班到底在干什么？”你懂我的意思吧？所以我觉得，肯定需要有人紧跟着集体思维，了解大家如何利用每次模型发布来构建和思考。嗯，他们就是那种订阅了一堆服务、每个每月都花 200 美元的人。你懂我意思吧？所以你得从组织架构上为这种情况留出空间。不过我觉得同样重要的第二点，是这些人能够进行构建的环境。这可能是这件事的另一部分。Host: I think every company definitely needs a set of people, a team, however you want to manifest it, that is their job is to be at the frontier and they're almost like if they haven't heard about the latest hot thing viral on X in the last 24 hours is like what are you doing at your job? You know what I mean? Like so I think there's definitely an element of like you want people plugged in to like the hive mind of kind of how people are building and thinking in all the model releases. Um they're the people who have like eight $200 a month subscriptions on everything. Do you know what I like so you have to kind of architect the organization where that can exist. I think the second thing though that's just as important is the environment of which those people can build. And so that's like the other maybe like part of that.

然后我觉得第三部分，老实说，如果你看看历史就会发现这一点。我读过不少这方面的书，因为大多数情况下，如果你只看数据，一家大公司成立一个实验室，这个实验室通常效果不佳，三到四年后就会不了了之；或者实验室能持续一段时间，但公司始终无法将实验室的成果商业化。于是就会出现这样的情况：有人看到了未来，然后就把它作为一家独立公司来做，诸如此类，对吧？历史上有很多著名的例子。所以我觉得这里有一个很有意思的平衡问题：能不能让一群人像 Dan 说的那样，身处前沿、打造前沿事物，同时又以某种方式跨越更大的公司，与公司建立联系，而不是让人觉得“哦，那不过是某个奇怪的研发团队，总是在搞些噱头和玩具”。And then I think the third part which is honestly where if you look at the history and I've I've read a bunch of books on this because most like if you just look at the data a large company who starts a lab the lab is usually ineffective and fizzles out after about 3 to four years or they have duration but the company can never commercialize the things coming out of the lab. And so you get things like someone comes by and sees the future and then they do it as a separate company or whatever, right? And there's like famous examples throughout history of that. And so I think there is this interesting balance of like can you have a team of people who live at the frontier like Dan says who are building frontier things but can somehow bridge or connect across the bigger company in a way that it's not oh that's just some weird R&D group always coming up with like gimmicks and toys.

你明白我的意思吗？所以我觉得，确实需要某种特定的人，或者一群特定的人，才能说出这样的话：“嘿，那东西现在看起来像个玩具。可五年后，它会成为我们未来不可或缺的一部分。”而这恰恰是前沿构想有时会失败的地方——至少从历史中可以看到这一点。你可能前两件事都做对了，却在第三件事上栽了跟头，那整件事就真的无关紧要了。你明白我的意思吗？Do you know what I mean? And so I think it takes a certain person or a certain set of people who can actually be like, "Hey, that thing looks like a toy right now. That's going to be essential to our future in five years." And that's actually where at least studying history where sometimes these frontier ideas fall short. You can get the first two things right and then fail on the third one and then the whole thing really doesn't matter. Do you know what I mean?

嘉宾：是啊。这挺有意思的。我当时就想，连 Anthropic 这样最前沿的公司——你知道，他们本来就已经站在最前沿了——都觉得：“好吧，但我们还需要一个 Labs 团队，真正去盯着前沿中的前沿。”没错。还有一件我们也常在内部开玩笑的事：随着 Labs 发展壮大，幸好我们有几个项目做得不错，现在已经有很多用户，而且还在不断增长。到目前为止，我们内部逐渐形成了一套共同语言，也开始发现，像 Notebook 这样用户量或使用流程规模更大的项目，或者 AI Studio 这类从 Labs 里发展出来的东西，在某些方面存在挤占那些从零到一项目的风险。Guest: Yeah. It's interesting. I was just like even Anthropic has a labs team like the most cutting edge company they're you know just like at the frontier already they're like okay but we also need a labs team to actually watch the frontier frontier. Yeah that's right. Well, one thing we joke about too inside as labs has grown now and we've had a few projects thankfully have kind of hit and are you know lots of users now and growing we've actually internally to this point of like common language what we started to find was a bigger project like notebook in terms of users or flow or AI studio or these things that are like kind of grown out of labs um they were in some ways there's a risk they crowd out the zero to one stuff

主持人：所以我们开始使用的说法是，零到一阶段的实验室、一到十阶段的实验室，还有十到一百阶段的实验室。这些说法对你的听众来说可能没什么意义，但对我们而言，我们其实是把它们编码成了实验室生命周期中的不同阶段。我们希望所有这些产品都具有共同的创新活力。但在每个阶段内部，你面临的挑战和需要优化的方面都截然不同。在零到一阶段，你关注的是眼球——就像我们刚才谈到的那样；而到了十到一百阶段，你可能关注的是转化漏斗和 CPA，并思考如何真正把用户转化为产品中的那些神奇时刻。这在很多方面都是一场规模化的游戏。正在收听的某个人……Host: and so the terms we've started started using is like there's zero to one labs, there's one to 10 labs, and there's like 10 to 100. And these may not be like mean anything to your audience, but to us, we actually kind of encoded like these are different stages of like the lab's life cycle. And we want all of these products to have this like innovative energy that's common. But inside each of those stages, there's very different challenges and very different things you're optimizing for. And in zero to one, you're looking at eyeballs like we talked about. and maybe 10 to 100 you're looking at like waterfalls and CPAs and thinking about like how are we actually converting people to like these like magic moments in the product and it's a scaling game in a lot of way someone listening is

搭建内部实验室的技巧Tips for setting up an internal lab

他们觉得自己应该组建一个前沿团队、一个实验室团队。我感觉实验室团队的定位已经有所演变。过去的想法大概是打造下一个大型业务部门；现在的思路更像是：好吧，什么新技术能为我们的核心业务解锁新的可能？我也不确定是不是真的如此，但我的感觉是这样的。不过，话说回来，对于想在公司内部组建实验室团队的人，你有什么建议？比如三条建议。convinced they should set up a frontier team a lapse team and it feels like laps teams have evolved a little bit used to be like build the next big business unit is like the idea here it's like okay what's like a new technology that is unlocking something our core business like I I wonder if that's true but that's what it feels like to But I guess just with that in mind, what are maybe three tips for someone that's wants to set up a lapse team internally?

嘉宾：是的，我觉得第一点是，你得努力创造一个能让奇特事物生长的空间，不能只是把它安置在现有的业务部门之下。它必须有某种独立性。嗯，在一些公司，这意味着它需要向 CEO 汇报，或者在组织架构上与其他部门保持足够的距离。我们可以在你愿意的话深入聊聊这一点，但我认为这非常重要。第二点是要有一群人。以我们为例，我们的理念是“用户第一、Google 第二、实验室第三”：实验室的职责是让用户取得成功，让 Google 取得成功，而不是让实验室自身成功。因此，这里面或许需要一些谦逊、协作，或者说这样一种思维方式：成功究竟是什么样的？我认为，对我们来说，我们把这个问题拆解成了这样一点，我也会鼓励其他公司这么想：你们设立这个实验室，是为了把成果交付给现有产品，还是为了发明全新的产品线和品类？Guest: Yeah, I think one, you got to try to create a space where weird things can grow and you can't just nestle this like under an existing business unit. it has to have its own kind of independence uh is one and that in some companies that means it needs to report to the CEO or it needs to report into enough of a distance in a way um and we can go into that if you want but that's super important I think the second thing is is a set of people and in the case of us this was this users first Google second labs third thinking where the job of the lab is to make users successful and make Google success successful. It's not to make itself successful. And so there's a bit of a maybe a humility or a collaboration or kind of this mindset of like what does success look like? And I think for us how we've broken that down and how I would encourage companies to think about it is like is your goal of this lab to graduate things to existing products or is your goal to go invent new product lines and categories?

就我们而言，我们最初成立时是一个毕业实验室，随着时间推移，它不断发展壮大，因为我们开始意识到，AI 确实会改变很多类别，也会模糊它们之间的界限。但第二件事是，要非常清楚自己在玩什么游戏，以及什么算赢、什么算输。也就是说，在某种程度上要保持独立，但同时又是同一个团队的一部分。嗯，我觉得第三件事——我们在谈到实验室时也稍微聊过这个——我能想象，听节目的 CEO 或其他 C-suite 高管，可以利用你们的实验室，不只是进行产品开发或技术探索，甚至还可以借此挑战公司的运作方式，几乎可以说是挑战事情的惯常做法。嗯，这其实就是我们团队常用的说法：实验室有时会在 Google 制造一些良性麻烦。当然，也有些麻烦是不好的，你肯定不想制造。And in our case, we started and it was a graduation lab and it's expanded over time as we've started to realize AI really transforms and blurs a lot of categories. But being very clear about like what game you're playing and what does winning or losing look like would be the second thing. So isolated in some way but also part of the same team. Um and I think the third thing and we talk about this a little bit on labs is and I could imagine for maybe CEOs listening or other kind of seauite people use your lab not just for product development or technology exploration but even for challenging how the company works and almost like the way things happen. Um and that's actually the phrase we use on the team is lab sometimes creates good trouble at Google. So there's like bad trouble you don't want to create.

不过，说个有建设性的例子吧。我们是最早意识到不同岗位职责正在变得模糊的团队之一。我们必须建立一套构建者的职业晋升阶梯，而且需要换个角度思考；我们应该先把实验室作为试点，再在 Google 全面推行。所以，从某种意义上说，这也是思考实验室多维性的一种方式。你可以关注流程和工作方式，而不一定只关注产品。真的很有意思。But good trouble, give you an example. We were one of the first teams that were like, we're seeing the job roles blur. We have to have a builder job ladder and we need to think about it differently and we should use labs as the place to pilot it before we roll it out across Google. And so that's another way you can think of like the multi-dimensionality of a lab in a way. you just like think about the processes and ways of working, not just products necessarily. That's really interesting.

主持人：嗯。嗯。Host: Yeah. Yeah.

嘉宾：那你会把什么类型的人招进这个实验室团队？你提到“遗忘速度”是个很有意思的思考角度。除此之外，你还会看重什么？又有哪些类型的人是你不太想招进实验室团队的？Guest: What about the type of people that you would put on this lab team? You mentioned this unlearning rate is a really interesting way to think about what else what do you look for and what's like a person you want to kind of avoid on the lab team.

主持人：是的。是的。太棒了。嗯，老兄，我们特别喜欢寻找那些就是忍不住要动手创造的人。我之前提过这一点。我们有一份关于团队成员特点的精简介绍。呃，我们也有一份关于 Gemini 的。加入团队的第一周，我就会把《Gemini 简介》发给新人，其中大多数人在招聘筛选的某个环节就已经看过了。他们总是在创造。他们求知欲很强。他们读书、刷 X、听播客。他们一心想解决人们的问题，而不是追逐个人的自我或荣耀。他们就是那种和他们待在一起时，会让你充满干劲的人。聊完之后，你会觉得：我想和这个人待在一起。就像是，我愿意和这个人一起赴汤蹈火。你懂我的意思吗？Host: Yeah. Yeah. Great. Um man, we are we are obsessed about finding people who just like can't stop themselves from building. I mentioned that earlier. We have a whole doc on the team labs in a nutshell. Uh we have one on Gemini, too. Gemini in a nutshell, the first week someone joins the team, I email it to them, and most of them have seen it before as part of some of our hiring screening, too. They build all the time. They are intellectually curious. They're reading, they're on X, they're listening to podcasts. They are obsessed about solving people's problems, not about their own ego or glory. They are the people when you're around them, they add energy. you leave a conversation, you're like, I want to be with that person. It's like, I'll run through a wall with that person. Do you know what I mean?

嗯，我们大概有17或18个。要是你想放进节目说明里，我之后可以发一些给你。呃，Um, we've got like 17 or 18 of them. Maybe I can send some of them to you after if you want if you want to include in the show notes. Uh,

嘉宾：是啊，但这确实是非常重要的一部分。我之前提到的第三点，是关于如何搭建实验室的一个建议。它不只是关于职业晋升阶梯之类的事。说到底，关键在于你想引进哪些未来的人才——他们会以不同的方式思考，以不同的方式挑战现状。而且他们确实是不同类型的人。我们也发现，随着这些产品的发展，从0到1阶段的人，和从1到10、再从10到100阶段的人，也有些不同。所以，怎样才能创造一些共同点呢？不过我确实觉得，比如你跟人交谈、面试时，如果对方说：“嘿，来看看我刚做出来的这个东西”，那立刻就很有说服力。呃，或者我会问他们一些问题，比如面对未知、无章可循、如同身处黑暗洞穴般的情境——这些事情发生时，前路不明，他们会怎么找出路？对这类情况充满干劲的人，会让人非常信服。嗯，所以，确实有某种特定类型的人是你想找的。Guest: yeah, but it's it's um it's such an important part. And that third thing I talked about as like a tip for setting up a lab. It's not just about job ladders and stuff. It's literally about who are the people of the future that you are trying to bring in that are going to think different and challenge things different and it is it's a different type and what we've also found as these products have grown the zero to one people are different a little bit than the one to 10 and the 10 to 100 too. So it's like how do you kind of create some commonality but I I do think like you know when you're talking to someone you're looking at like in an interview if I'm talking to someone they're like hey let me show you this thing I just built instant credibility. uh or if they're like I'll ask them questions about you know unknown unstructured dark caves you know these events and like where they're like don't know what like which ways forward how do they figure it out people that are energized by that huge credibility boost um so yeah there's definitely a certain type that you're looking for

主持人：就组织架构而言，人们最常犯的错误是什么？Host: in terms of the org structure what's the biggest mistake people make

嘉宾：对，我觉得你知道，其实我给你举个正在发生的例子吧。我们现在正试着弄清楚，嗯，要在多大程度上把不同的子团队分开，让他们各自去推进事情，而不是尝试围绕主题把人分组。比如，我们聊过把互动娱乐当作一个领域，或者说一个我们感兴趣、想去“钓鱼”的池塘。那要怎么做呢？是由一组人来负责吗？还是让五个人各自试着做做看？嗯，我觉得有时候人们会犯的一个错误，可能是太快把人归到一个团队里；这种做法或许有种偏好，就是想把事情整合起来，让结构更清晰。我想这些年来我学到的，可能是吃过苦头才明白的：有时候你得先在混乱中待一阵子，看看会冒出什么结果，但同时也要愿意做出这类调整。Guest: yeah I think you know it's actually I'll give you a live one we're talking about right now is like we're trying to figure out um how much uh you kind of isolate different sub teams and going after things versus try to create groupings of like thematic things. For example, we've talked about like interactive entertainment as like an area or like a pond we're interested in fishing in. And it's like how does that do you do that as one set of people doing that? Is like five people just take like five shots at it. Um, so that like a mistake sometimes I think is people maybe rush to a group and maybe the bias is towards like consolidate, make it clean. And I think what I've learned maybe the hard way over the years is like actually sometimes you kind of have to live in the messiness a little bit and almost like see what emerges but still be willing to kind of make those kind of changes.

这些有点像组织设计、团队建设之类的事情。嗯，我还想说的另一个变化，或者另一件事是，有时候一个常见的错误是，你知道，招人太多、太快。这种情况在大公司会发生，在初创公司也会发生。有时候看到“哇，我们的团队在上个季度，或者过去六个月，或者不管多久，人数翻了一倍或三倍”，确实很容易让人上瘾。而这些大多数时候都只是虚荣指标，问题很大。所以我觉得，另一件事就是这是一个常见错误。嗯，我记得几年前我参与过一个项目，我们的工程师人数达到了大约 30 人，当时我特别高兴，可我们完全没有产品市场契合度，只有一个鼓舞人心的愿景。你大概也知道，基本上最后是怎么收场的。Those are like org design team kind of things. Um, the other change or the other thing I'd say sometimes is a common mistake in a you know you hire too many people too fast. This happens at big companies. It happens at startups too. And it's like it can be so addicting to like sometimes look at like, oh, our team doubled or tripled in the last quarter or six months or whatever. And these are just vanity metrics that are really bad most of the time. So I think that's the other thing is like a common mistake. Um I remember I was on a project years ago and we got to like 30 engineers and I was so happy and we had zero product market fit but a very inspiring vision. And you probably know where you know the outcome of how that ended basically.

AI 世界中的产品未来The future of products in an AI world

主持人：呃，最后这几分钟里，我想问你一个问题，是洛根·洛根·基尔帕特里克建议我问你的。Host: Uh I'm going to uh in our last few minutes I'm going to ask you a question Logan Logan Kilpatrick suggested to ask you.

嘉宾：我想他说的是 AI Studio，对吧？我忘了他现在的情况。好，酷。Guest: I think he said of AI Studio, right? I forget his current. Okay, cool.

主持人：很好。Host: Great.

嘉宾：他曾是位很棒的播客嘉宾。Guest: He's a great former podcast guest.

主持人：我不太确定这个问题是从哪儿来的，但我真的很好奇。呃，他的问题是：你觉得五年后，Google 会有 10,000 款产品，还是五款？Host: I don't know exactly where this question is coming from, but I'm so curious. Uh his question is in five years, do you think Google is going to have 10,000 products or five?

嘉宾：哦，是的。好的。这是我和 Logan 在团队里长期争论的话题。嗯，Guest: Oh yes. Okay. This is a longunning debate Logan and I have on the team. Um,

主持人：不过这挺有意思的，至少对我来说是这样，我一直在改变自己的答案。所以也许我现在表现得不太好。Host: but it's funny, at least to me, I keep switching my answer. So maybe I'm a bad right now.

嘉宾：我更倾向于这么想：我不知道我们以后是不是还会用同样的方式看待产品。所以，我觉得可以从一个角度来理解：谷歌有一万种产品。也就是说，有一万个各自拥有品牌的界面，事情会变得非常复杂，诸如此类。嗯，考虑到你刚才提到的那些，我不确定这是否可行。什么是可行的？或者我们应该怎么做？嗯，因为你可以有一个产品工厂，专门不断产出这些产品。这算是你可以考虑的一种思路。嗯，我越来越觉得，也许会出现一些更加量身定制的体验或事物，由模型来创造。这可能意味着背后有实验室团队在打造一个智能体，专门完成某件事，而你可能会在一个通用界面上体验到它。我也不确定。Guest: I'm more in the camp of like I don't know if we're even going to think of products the same way. So I think one framing of it is 10,000 products from Google. That's like 10,000 surfaces that have their own brands and it's all complex and everything. Um, I'm not sure that'll be possible to your earlier point. what's possible or what should we do? Um because you can have a product factory that's just going to turn out these products. So that's like one one thing you could think about. Um I'm more and more thinking about like are there almost like experiences or things that are going to be more bespoke that the models might make and that might mean there's labs teams behind it making the agent that does this thing that you experience maybe in a common surface. I'm not sure.

嗯，不过我也不是……我们实验室现在正在做几个相关实验，看看能不能证明这场辩论双方的观点。也许这就是他把这个观点也提出来的原因。我们有时也会这么做：从两方面来看，然后说，好吧，如果这个领域真的整合起来，出现一个超级应用或一组超级应用，那会是怎样的局面？如果它变得极度碎片化，又会是怎样的局面？所以现在我大概更倾向于这样的看法：我认为超级应用在世界某些地区、某些使用场景中显然非常成功。但我觉得，对很多使用它们的人来说，这类应用可能非常复杂；由于复杂性太高，要真正推动那些能创造价值的行为也很困难。不过，这也假设了大多数此类体验仍将由人来亲自操作。Um, but I also am not we we have a couple of experiments in labs going on this right now of like can we prove both sides of this debate and maybe that's why he threw it in like we and sometimes that's what we'll do is we'll kind of take both sides of it and say like okay if this thing really consolidates down and there's a super app or a set of super apps what's that world going to look like and maybe if this thing super fragments what's that world going to look like and so right now I'm probably more on the camp of Like I think super apps have worked in some use cases in some parts of the world obviously extremely well but I think for a lot of people using them they can be very complex and it's very hard to actually drive kind of the behavior that adds value because there's so much complexity but this is also assuming humans are going to be the ones tapping most of these experiences as well.

所以总之，这是个很有意思、值得讨论的话题。呃，对，这是洛根和我最喜欢聊的话题之一，我们经常会聊到这个。And so anyway, this is a fun one to debate and uh yeah, one of Logan and I's favorite kind of we'll we'll chat on this one a lot.

主持人：我很喜欢这种不知道我们将走向何方的感觉。就像它只是展现出我们所有人都在努力弄清楚这一切。Host: I love that it's just unclear where we're going. Like it's just it just shows where we're just we're all just trying to figure this out.

嘉宾：没错。Guest: That's right.

主持人：这真是一个很好的……呃……例子。Host: That's such a good uh example of that.

Google Labs 的文化、仪式与结语Google Labs culture, rituals, and closing thoughts

好的。在进入非常精彩的快问快答环节之前，Josh，你还有什么想分享的吗？有什么想留给听众的话吗？或者有什么想再强调一下的吗？有。我想我会考虑的一件事是——嗯，我自己也一直在琢磨这个。如果大家有什么想法，请在 X 或其他地方告诉我。我还是觉得，目前在如何获取你正在打造的产品和体验的反馈这方面，还有很大的探索空间，不管你是在 Google Labs 工作，还是作为初创公司的创始人，或是其他情况。所以我觉得，如何倾听、汇总和收集反馈，并从反馈循环中获得洞见和灵感，也是另一个值得探索的领域。嗯，我觉得现在 AI 在这方面的应用正在带来很多有意思的进展。Okay. Well, before we get to our very exciting lightning round, Josh, is there anything else you wanted to share? Anything else you want to leave listeners with? Anything you want to double down on? Yeah. I mean, I guess one thing I'd think about is like um and I I'm always trying to think of this too. If people have ideas, please just like let me know on X or whatever is like I still think there's a lot of space right now on how to get feedback about the products and experiences you're building whether it's in Google Labs or as a startup founder or whatever. And so that feels like another area of like how do you listen and sort of aggregate collect get insight inspiration from feedback loops. Um that I feel like there's a lot of interesting stuff happening with AI applied to that right now.

嗯，我相信你们大家可能也都在做类似的事，Lenny——在你们自己的工作和我的工作中，都让智能体整夜运行，总结发生的一切。不过我觉得有个有意思的问题：是什么造就了一位优秀的 PM？优秀的 PM 能洞察某一类人的需求，以及什么样的东西会让他们感到惊喜、或解决他们的问题。我觉得有意思的是，借助 AI 和我们正在构建的这类新产品，该如何打通这个反馈闭环。总之，这也是我最近一直在想的事情。Um and I'm sure all of you probably do too Lenny on your stuff and my stuff of you know agents running overnight summarizing everything that's happening and but I feel like there's an interesting like what makes a PM great. a great PM has insight about a certain type of people and the types of things that are going to delight them or solve their problem. And I feel like that's an interesting like how do you crack that feedback loop with AI and these new types of products we're building. So anyway, that's something also in the back of my mind right now.

嘉宾：是的。我的意思是，问题就在于，怎样才能让 AI 像顶尖的产品经理那样，善于识别机会和洞察？是的，我觉得这是其中一个方向。我还觉得另一个问题是，有没有这样一种可能……Guest: Yeah. Like so idea the question there is just how do you get AI to be as good as an amazing top percentile PM at identifying opportunities and insights? Yeah, I think that's one branch of it. And I think the other one is like is there a world where

主持人：我不知道，你生活中可能也有一些人，就像我生活中也有一些人一样，当你和他们在一起时……Host: I don't know there's probably some people in your life just like they're in my life when you're around them

嘉宾：洞见似乎很自然地就会涌现出来，你们也会逐渐触及许多有意思的视角。那么，有没有一种人与 AI 协作的模式，能让这种情况更多地发生？我觉得这或许是个挺有意思的问题。Guest: insights seem to flow pretty naturally and you kind of get to a lot of interesting perspectives and like is there a collaboration model with people and AI that enables more of that? I think it's kind of an interesting prompt maybe.

主持人：听起来我们在 Google Labs 这边要涉足 B2B SaaS 软件了。我喜欢这个想法。我愿意买。Host: Sounds like we're getting into B2B SAS software over here at Google Labs. I love it. I'd buy that.

嘉宾：好。呃，我知道你很快就得走了，所以我就只问一个闪电问答的问题吧。我听说你会给队友颁一些特别搞笑的奖项。呃，我最喜欢的是 TPU 收割机奖。呃，不过还有别的。呃，跟我们分享分享你颁的这些奖项，以及它们的含义，它们都……Guest: Okay. Uh, I know you have to run soon, so I'm going to skip to just one lightning round question. I heard you give these hilarious awards to teammates. Uh, my favorite is the TPU harvester. Uh, but there are others. Uh, share share these awards you give and what they mean, what they're

主持人：哦，对。对。嗯，随着我们的产品不断发展，我们需要越来越多的 TPU。我们几个人想找个办法，奖励那些做效率优化、回收 TPU 这类脏活累活的人——回收 TPU，这样我们就能打造下一批功能，推动业务增长。所以我们会给这些人颁发一把耙子，呃，还有现金奖励。Host: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Um, so the TPU harvester, um, we just need more and more TPUs as our products are growing. And I a few of us wanted to figure out a way to reward people who do the grungy work of efficiency and reclaiming TPUs, harvesting TPUs so we can build the next features and fuel our growth. So we give out a rake to these people uh and a cash award

嘉宾：就像一把真正的耙子Guest: like an actual rake

主持人：就像我们在 Etsy 上做的一个迷你小耙子，呃，那个真的很有趣，而且我们把它变成了一场盛大的庆祝活动。所以，这些人会保存 TPU、对它们进行优化，再把它们做出来。Host: like a little miniature rake we made on Etsy and uh that one is really fun and is we kind of turned into this big celebration. So this is people that save TPUs that optimize make them

嘉宾：优化，不要使用最多的 token。Guest: optimize not use the most tokens.

主持人：没错，没错。对，对。我们是分别跟他们聊的。不过，呃，我觉得其中一个奖项有点像耙子。还有一个是颁给那些会去修复各种小问题的人——这些产品里的小瑕疵日积月累，会惹恼用户。我们做了一个金色创可贴，颁给这些人。就像是让他们把金色创可贴摆在桌上，提醒自己去修复这些小问题。嗯，我们实验室里还有一种奖项。我们特别看重那些能以出人意料的方式，推动模型探索前沿的人。我们有个奖叫“LLM低语者”：他们似乎能对模型低声细语。呃，我们会送他们一对超大的耳朵，因为他们能听见模型说出的、别人听不到的东西，还有一把很棒的机械键盘。嗯，我们还有更多类似的奖项。Host: That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. That we talked to them separately. But uh you I think that's one's like uh like a rake. Another one people that go in fix paper cuts these little things that add up in a product that annoy people. We made like a golden band-aid and we give people to that. It's like they put it on their desk as a golden band-aid for fixing paper cuts. Um we have a thing in labs. were really interested of like people who can push the model to these like frontier ways that like in surprising kind of ways. Um we have this thing called the LLM whisperer like they're able to kind of whisper to the model. Uh they get a giant set of ears um like because they can hear things from the model that others can't and like a really nice mechanical keyboard. Um, and there's more of these things, too.

但我们一直在尝试找一些方法，想把价值编码进这些有点傻乎乎、但又有意义的符号里。比如说，提高 TPU 的使用效率，能让我们发展壮大、触达更多人。“小修小补”指的就是那些能让产品变得更贴心、更出色的改进。呃，显然，那个耳朵旁边有个耳语的图案，代表倾听能带来突破和新产品。所以，没错，我们总是在想这些奇奇怪怪的点子。我很喜欢这个。这种传统最棒了。我听说还有一个很大的“感谢”奖，获奖的人还能和领导层聊聊什么的。But we're we're trying to find like ways to kind of like I don't know encode the value in these like dorky symbols, but that that mean something like becoming more efficient with our TPUs enables us to grow and reach more people. Paper cuts, these are the what make the product delightful and like excellent. Uh, and then obviously like the whisper with the ears is like these lead to kind of breakthroughs and new products. So yeah, we're always coming up with weird stuff like this. I love this. This kind of traditions are the best. I heard there's also like a big thank you one where you get like talk to leadership or something like that.

嘉宾：是的，这有点像某种秘密社团。我们基本上会在某个人的日历上安排一个邀请，然后你知道，看起来有点吓人，因为团队里会有四五位领导参加，而且没有议程。呃，接着他们就会出现，我们轮流发言。大家围成一圈，告诉他们我们有多么感激他们加入团队。Guest: Yeah, this one is a little bit of kind of like a secret society in a way where we'll basically like put a put an invite on someone's calendar and we'll just, you know, it looks kind of scary because there's like four or five leaders on the team. There's no agenda. Uh and then they show up and we take turns. We go around the circle and we just tell them why we appreciate them so much for being on the team.

主持人：嗯，这挺有意思的，也完全出乎人们的意料。我总是这样开场：“这不是一次糟糕的会议，这是一次很好的会议。”你知道，人通常会往最坏处想，但我们实际上是在做相反的事。这些人是最最有价值的人之一。Host: Um, and it's pretty fun and it totally surprises people and I always start the meeting with like this is not a bad meeting, this is a good meeting. You know, you usually, you know, your mind may assume the worst, but we're actually doing the opposite. These are some of the most most valuable people.

嘉宾：哇，太棒了。我喜欢这些东西。呃，Josh，听众们能怎么帮到你呢？哦，Miss Cinda 的反馈。你们当中已经有很多人这么做了。我想，呃，我们从中获得了很多快乐，也非常感激所有使用我们正在努力打造的产品的人。还有，呃，如果我们能在实验室方面或 Gemini 方面提供帮助，也请让这成为双向的。呃，再次感谢你邀请我，Lenny。能和你共度一段时间真的非常愉快。Guest: Wow, that is awesome. I love all of these. Uh, Josh, how can listeners be useful to you? Oh, Miss Cinda's feedback. So many of you do already. I would say u we get a lot of um a lot of joy and we're very grateful for all the people who use the stuff we're trying to build. And um if if we can be helpful on the lab side or the Gemini side, too, please let's make it two-way. Uh and thanks again, Lenny, for having me. It's been great great to spend some time with you.

主持人：我觉得，呃，我们觉得我们会帮助很多人弄清楚如何打造并保持……保持在前沿。呃，我真的很感谢你来到这里，Josh。非常感谢。Host: I think we uh think we're going to help a lot of people figure out how to build stay stay at the edge. Uh I I really appreciate you being here, Josh. Thank you so much.

嘉宾：好的，谢谢。祝你今天愉快。Guest: Yeah, thank you. Have a great day.

主持人：大家再见。非常感谢大家收听。如果你觉得节目内容有价值，可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或你常用的播客应用上订阅本节目。另外，也请考虑为我们评分或留下评论，这真的能帮助其他听众发现这个播客。你可以在 lennispodcast.com 收听所有往期节目，或了解更多节目相关信息。我们下期再见。Host: Bye everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennispodcast.com. See you in the next episode.