86 分钟找到 PMF：Rob Snyder 的需求验证与增长指南

简要说明Brief Description

罗布·斯奈德和莱尼·拉奇茨基运用 PULL 框架，探讨如何找到产品与市场的匹配点：梳理一项无法回避的任务、现有选项及其局限。他们还谈到一手调研、测试购买意愿、外联、销售、定价、用户引导，以及如何建立一个可重复运作的案例研究工厂。Rob Snyder and Lenny Rachitsky work through finding product–market fit using the PULL framework: an unavoidable project, the available options and their limitations. They cover firsthand discovery, testing buying intent, outreach, sales, pricing, onboarding and a repeatable case study factory.

目录Table of Contents

• 罗布·斯奈德简介
  Introduction to Rob Snyder
• PULL 框架：促使客户购买的因素
  The PULL framework: what makes customers buy
• “PULL”这个缩写
  The “PULL” acronym
• Jump如何赢得财务顾问的青睐
  How Jump found pull with financial advisors
• 为什么拉力是被发现的，而非被创造的
  Why pull is discovered, not created
• 向个人销售，而非向公司销售
  Selling to a person, not a company
• 通过亲身经历寻找创业点子
  Finding startup ideas through firsthand experience
• 用两张幻灯片检验你的拉动假设
  Testing your pull hypothesis with two slides
• 识别真实的购买意向
  Recognizing real buying intent
• 当解决自己的问题奏效时
  When solving your own problem works
• 能够开启转型的孤注一掷之问
  The Hail Mary question that can unlock a pivot
• 需要避免的常见陷阱
  Common traps to avoid
• 快速回顾
  Quick recap
• 开启与首批客户的对话
  Landing your first customer conversations
• 外联基准指标与问题诊断
  Outreach benchmarks and diagnosing what isn’t working
• 如何进行你的第一次销售电话沟通
  How to run your first sales call
• 成功的推介策略
  Successful pitch tactics
• 你的产品需要好 10 倍吗？
  Does your product need to be 10 times better?
• 敲定交易
  Closing the deal
• 使用 PULL 框架制定定价策略
  Using the PULL framework to set pricing
• 修订你的假设并进入哥布林模式
  Revising your hypothesis and going into goblin mode
• 设计入门引导，让客户留下来
  Designing onboarding to make customers stay
• 客户流失能让你了解理想客户的哪些特征
  What churn can teach you about your ideal customer
• 打造可重复运作的案例研究工厂
  Building a repeatable case study factory
• 在成熟企业内部应用该框架
  Applying the framework inside established companies
• 闪电问答与最后感想
  Lightning round and final thoughts

Rob Snyder 简介Introduction to Rob Snyder

销售电话背后的理论是，如果你的产品足够有吸引力，对方就会迫不及待地从我手里把它抢走。所以，我有一套非常具体的销售电话流程，帮助你进入需求挖掘阶段，然后再从这一阶段过渡出来。人们该如何运用这套框架，想出更有可能真正成功的点子？The theory behind a sales call is if you have pull, you're going to rip the thing out of my hands. So, I have a very specific structure of a sales call for getting into discovery and then transitioning out of discovery. How can people use this framework to help them come up with ideas that are more likely to actually be successful?

演讲者：人们常犯的一个主要错误，是认为拉力是公司拥有的东西。其实，拉力是个人拥有的。你不是在向 SpaceX 销售，而是在向 SpaceX 的法务负责人销售：她的待办事项上有一个项目，而他们自己无法完成这个项目。Speaker: One of the main mistakes people make is thinking that pull is a thing that a company has. It's a thing a person has. You're not selling to SpaceX. You're selling to the head of legal at SpaceX who has a project on her to-do list that they can't do themselves.

说话人：你有一种所谓“孤注一掷”的做法。你和别人聊着聊着，他们可能会说：“天哪，这正是我需要的。”但很多时候，这种情况不会发生。这也是一个机会，可以像我说的那样“抛出一记长传赌一把”：你待办清单上有没有什么事，愿意付钱让我现在就帮你做？我们是在看看他们会不会尝试购买。Speaker: You have this idea of the Hail Mary approach. You're talking with people and they're like, "Oh my gosh, this is exactly what I need." A lot of the time that's not going to happen. That's also an opportunity to what I call throw the Hail Mary, which is there anything on your to-do list that you would pay me to do right now? We're seeing if they try to buy.

如果他们不这样做，也没关系。我们学到了一些东西，可以就此继续迭代。如果他们这样做了，那也很好。If they don't, cool. We've learned something. We can kind of keep iterating from there. If they do, okay, great.

现在可能有眉目了。看看它会不会重复出现。Now we might have something. Let's see if it repeats.

说你确实找到了一样东西，一样很有吸引力、让人们觉得“我现在就需要这个”的东西。接下来呢？Speaker: Say you actually found something, something that is pulling and people are like, I need this now. What comes next?

发言人：留存率非常重要，但这一点并不显而易见。Speaker: Retention is super important and it's not obvious.

PULL 框架：促使客户购买的因素The PULL framework: what makes customers buy

因此，我的建议是——发言人：罗布，非常感谢你来到这里，欢迎收听我们的播客。And so what I recommend is Speaker: Rob, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

演讲者：你好。谢谢。你是《拉力的力量》一书的作者。我手边正好有这本书。Speaker: Hello. Thank you. You are the author of The Power of Pull. I've got the book right here.

你有一份名为《创业公司的物理学》的 newsletter。我不确定之前有没有跟你说过，我认识你的方式非常特别。呃，我有一个面向付费订阅者的 Slack 社群。就在过去一个月里，社群里有两个人分别发起了讨论串，他们都说：“Lenny，呃，你得请 Rob 来上播客。”You have a newsletter called The Physics of Startups. I don't think I told you this, but the way I learned of you is a very unusual way. Uh I have this Slack community for my paid subscribers. And in the Slack, just in the past month, two different people started threads where they're like, "Lenny, uh you need to get Rob on the podcast.

我一直在读他的书，这本书对我正在做的事情特别有帮助。”这些人有的是创始人，有的是产品从业者，我就想：这人到底是谁？我得了解一下。于是我联系了他，这次对话就是这么促成的。本质上，你在这本书里写的内容，以及你在通讯中做的事情，就是为如何找到产品与市场的契合点、如何从零到一再更进一步，提供了一份非常务实的指南。I have been reading his book and it's extremely useful to what I've been doing." And these are some founders, some product people, and I'm just like, well, who is this guy? I got to find out. And so I reached out and uh that's how this came to be. Essentially, what you've written in this book and what you do in your newsletter is you've basically created a very pragmatic guide to finding product market fit and basically going from zero to one and then one beyond.

为了让大家有理由相信你，除了我刚才提到大家都说这些内容很有用之外，我知道你已经帮助大约 50 家初创公司从零做到超过一百万的 AR。谈谈这些见解和建议究竟来自哪里吧。And to give people a reason to believe you, other than what I've already said about people uh saying how useful this has been, I know you've helped something like 50 different startups get from zero to over a million in AR. Speak to just where this insight and advice comes from.

说话人：嗯，是的。我没想到自己会写书，或者做任何类似的事。呃，作为一名创始人，在试图从零到一的过程中，我碰了壁；后来不知怎么就摸索出了门道，接着一大群朋友开始拉我去帮他们的初创公司从零到一，我也就渐渐迷上了这个阶段。Speaker: Yeah. Yes. I did not expect to be writing a book or doing anything like this. Uh, I got punched in the face as a founder trying to go zero to one and then randomly figured it out and then a bunch of my friends started pulling me in to help their startups go zero to one and just kind of got obsessed with this stage.

这真的特别有意思，也特别奇怪。我觉得关于这件事，写得好的东西不多，呃，所以我就莫名其妙地迷上了尽可能多次地从零到一，而且我很喜欢这样。其实我想读几段社群里的人说的话，来印证你刚才提到的那些——大家为什么会这么评价你做的事情。而这真的很不寻常。It's super interesting, super weird. I feel like there's not a lot of good stuff written about it and uh and so I've just gotten strangely obsessed with doing zero to one as many times as possible and I love that. I'm going to read a couple quotes actually from my community to reinforce the things you just said of why of what people have been saying about what you've done. And this is really unusual.

你刚才虽然说内容不多，但其实面向创始人的内容很多。比如，如何找到创业点子，如何找到产品与市场的契合点。所以，如果有人说，尤其是相比外面其他任何内容，这对他们来说特别有用，那对我而言就是一个很强的信号。There's like even though you just said there's not a lot, there is a lot of content for founders. Here's how to find idea. Here's how to find product market fit. So, it's really it's a big signal to me if people are saying this is in particular extremely useful to them more than anything else out there.

所以，我社区里的人告诉了我几件事。第一，我记得读他那本书的第一章时，感觉肩上的重担卸下了：原来我并不是一个愚蠢又糊涂的异类，这其实是这个过程中的正常一环。第二，除了那些非常实用的内容之外，我个人发现，这让我能够正视争取产品市场匹配的过程有多痛苦、多孤独、多么奇怪。最后，我们也遇到了同样的从零到一陷阱——Rob 描述过这种情况：根据潜在客户口头上说他们想要什么来打造产品，而不是根据实际上能让他们点头的东西来打造。So, a few things that uh people told me in my community. One, I remember reading the first chapter of his book and feeling the weight lifted off my shoulders that I'm not some silly clueless outlier and that this is a normal part of the process. Another besides all the very tactical stuff, personally, I found I'm normalizing just how painful, lonely, weird it is to go through fighting mark fighting product market fit. Finally, we ran into the same zero to one traps uh Rob describes building based on what prospects said they wanted rather than what actually got them to say yes.

说话人：哇。你们社区的人真好。真是，呃……Speaker: Wow. You have very nice people in your community. That's that's uh

发言者：确实如此。Speaker: that's true.

说话人：太贴心了。Speaker: That's super kind.

说话人：没错。没错。好吧。总之，就是这样。Speaker: That's true. That's true. All right. Anyway, so there you go.

先给大家……好，大家注意一下。嗯，好，给我们概述一下拉取框架。Just to give people Okay, let's pay attention. Um okay, give us a uh an overview of the pull framework.

说话人：对。所以，拉力框架描述的是这样一种人：他们会把你的产品从你手里抢走。嗯，就是那种不买你的产品反而显得很奇怪的人。所以我们大概知道拉力是什么感觉——创业圈里常常会谈到这件事。你知道，那些登上你通讯的创业公司，拉力都强得惊人。Speaker: Yeah. So the pull framework describes a person who will pull your product out of your hands. Um someone someone who's weird not to buy your product. So we like know what pull feels like is it's the thing that's written about with startups, you know, it's the thing the startups that take up you your newsletter had insane pull.

你就是那样发展起来的，对吧？而且每个人都想要那样。我们大多数人都处在一种感觉自己在硬推的境地。我们试着说服别人关注，或者说服他们购买，而他们……这事好像也许有点效果。You grew like that, right? And everybody wants that. And most of us are in the situation where it feels like we are pushing. We're trying to convince people to care or convince them to buy and they're it's like kind of maybe working.

所以，所谓的拉力，描述的是这样一种人：如果他不买，反而会显得很奇怪。问题就在于，是什么让人恨不得把产品从你手里抢走？对此，我发现，许多传统的描述方式都很有道理：比如，我当创始人时，会去寻找那些火烧眉毛般的痛点和重大问题，提供能带来实际价值的差异化解决方案。我们的设计合作伙伴每天都在使用我们的产品。And so pull describes a person who would be weird not to buy. The question is just like what causes somebody to pull a product out of your hands. And for that I found a lot of the traditional descriptions of things like when I was a founder I went out and found hair on fire pain points big problems offered a differentiated solution that provided real value. We had design partners using our product every single day.

于是我就想，好吧，挺酷的，检查检查。这东西要起飞了。然后我们试着把它卖出去，却一头撞上了墙，接下来两年都在毫无方向地转来转去，完全不知道为什么。后来我们偶然换了个方向，事情就成了。我这才意识到，让人们争着从你手里抢走产品的，并不是那个东西。And so I was like okay cool check check. This thing's going to the moon. and then tried to sell it and just got smashed into a wall for 2 years pivoting around aimlessly, not having no clue why. And then we randomly pivoted. It took off and I realized that it wasn't the thing that causes people to pull a product out of your hands.

这不是痛点、价值主张之类的东西。嗯，因为要意识到，人们基本上可以说：“是啊，挺好的，你知道，你的产品能解决我们的痛点和问题，还能提供很多价值，这很好，但我不会为了买它而放下手头优先要做的事。”所以我意识到，关键在于优先事项——一种特定类型的优先事项：有人正试图做某件事，待办事项清单上有个项目，现在就想完成它，但用现有的工具、方法或选项都做不到。在这种情况下，他们就像一根绷紧的弹簧，对吧？他们想做点什么，却卡住了。这时你出现了，提供一个能帮他们摆脱困境的方案，帮助他们完成那件优先要做的事。It's not pain points or value props or things like that. it um because realize that people can basically just say uh yeah like great this you know it's great that your product solves our pain points problems offers a ton of value but I'm not going to drop my priorities to buy it and so I realized it's about priorities a certain kind of priority where somebody's trying to do something they got a project on their to-do list trying to do it right now but they can't do it with their existing tools methods or options In that case, they're like a coiled spring, right? Trying to do something stuck and you show up and just offer something that gets them unstuck, that helps them get that priority done.

这时他们就会把它从你手中抢走。而 pull framework 只是对这一过程的缩写。That's when they rip it out of your hands. And the pull framework is just an acronym for that.

“PULL”这一首字母缩略词The “PULL” acronym

我们来详细聊聊 PULL 这个缩写，因为它能让我们更深入地理解这个概念。Let's talk it through the acronym of pull because that goes deeper into this idea.

发言人：是的。所以，缩写 PL，其中的 P 代表项目。他们的待办清单上有一个项目。你可以把项目理解为一项需要完成的工作。Speaker: Yeah. So, acronym PL, there's a P project. They have a project on their to-do list. You can think of a project like a job to be done.

嗯，你知道，Bob Moesta，你之前请他上过节目。他很厉害。嗯，项目不是“我想买招聘软件”这种，而是“我想雇更多员工”这种需求。It's um you know, Bob Moesta, you've had him on. He's amazing. Um project is not like I want to buy recruitment software. It's I want to hire more employees kind of thing.

你是第二个，这是不可避免的。这是我现在必须做的事。为什么是现在？为什么不能晚点？You is the second one is unavoidable. This is a thing that I have to do right now. Why now? Why not later?

你现在必须做这件事，总有某种原因。首先，L 是我考虑用来开展这个项目的选项清单。可能是再雇一个人，也可能让现有团队来做；也可能使用我已经拥有的工具，或者市场上现有的工具。There's some reason why you have to do it now. First L is list of options I consider for doing the project. Could be again hiring somebody. Could be having our existing team do it. could be using the tools I already have or the tools out on the market.

第二个 L 是限制因素。为什么这些选项不足以帮我完成项目？太棒了。所以前两个确实非常重要，嗯，有意思的是，后两个感觉没那么重要。And the second L is limitations. Why are those options not good enough for getting me getting my project done? Amazing. So the first two are really important there and um it's interesting the second two feel less important.

我很好奇它们为什么如此重要。所以前两个本质上是在说：我遇到了一个问题，需要完成一项待办工作，而且这是个迫在眉睫的问题。从某种意义上说，这就是一个定义得非常具体的“火烧眉毛”问题。I'm curious why they're so important. So the first two are essentially like I have a problem. I need to solve a job to be done and this is an urgent problem. So in a sense this is the hair on fire problem very concretely defined.

这就是火烧眉毛的情况。我有一件待办事项，老板正等着我去做，而且必须马上完成。这不是那种我需要解决的一般问题。Here's what hair on fire looks like. I have like a to-do my boss is waiting for me to do and it needs to happen now. It's not just like a general thing that I need to solve.

说话者：是的。Speaker: Yes.

发言者：为什么后面这两个如此重要？也就是其他选择的概念，以及它们为什么行不通。Speaker: Why are the second two so important? This idea of other options and why those are not working.

说话人：是的。所以你可以想象这样一种情况，比如一个产品团队，他们接到了一项上级强制要求的重要任务。他们有一个非常重要的功能需要开发，或者有个项目是待办清单上必须完成的，但他们会自己动手做。所以他们什么都不需要。除非现有的方案不够好，否则他们不会买任何东西。Speaker: Yeah. So you can you can imagine a case where like a product team for example um they have a really important thing that the that has been mandated down. they have a really important feature they need to build or something that's an unavoidable project on their to-do list, but they're going to do it themselves. So, they don't need anything. They won't buy anything unless they their existing options aren't good enough.

所以，真的非常重要的一点是，不能只是我想做某件事，而我自己就能做，或者借助某个品类领先者也能做，甚至用市面上随便什么工具都能做。必须是那种我现有的选择都不够好的事情。这样我才会觉得自己被卡住了。And so, it really really is important that it's not just I'm trying to do something and I can do it myself or I can do it with a with a kind of category leader. I can do it with whatever tool is out there. It has to be something where my existing options are not good enough. So I am like stuck.

我、我被卡住了。I'm I'm blocked.

Jump如何赢得财务顾问的青睐How Jump found pull with financial advisors

说话人：我们举个例子，让这件事更具体一些。有没有什么产品或公司能让我们大概明白，我基本上是把它当作模板来用的？这就像一种填空游戏，你把它调出来，然后填完就行。来，举个例子吧。Speaker: Let's do an example to make this even more real. What's like a product or a company that gives us a sense of what I basically use this as a template. It's like a mad libsy thing where it's just like pull l and you fill it out. So let's go give us an example.

说话人：是的。我朋友在一家叫 Jump 的公司工作，这是一款面向财务顾问的 AI 会议记录工具。这个领域很有意思。顺便说一句，他们做的事情和我一样。Speaker: Yeah. So my friends are at a company called Jump which is an AI notetaker for financial advisors. Very interesting space. They did the same thing I did, by the way.

他们就像在撞墙一样折腾了18个月，最后终于找到了需求牵引，尝试销售，也摸索出了门道。但他们发现，财务顾问的待办事项清单上有一项任务：尽量减少为客户会议做笔记并将笔记录入 CRM 所花的时间。这是他们待办清单上的一项任务。不可避免的是，如果他们不做笔记并将其录入 CRM，就可能会进监狱。呃，所以他们必须做这些笔记，但他们在做笔记的时候，并不想把精力花在这上面。They spent 18 months just like hitting their head against the wall, and then finally found pull, tried to sell, and figured it out. But what they found was that financial advisors have a project on their to-do list that is to minimize the amount of time they spend taking notes for client meetings and putting those notes into their CRM. It's a project on their to-do list. the U, the unavoidable is if they don't take notes and put them into their CRM, they could go to jail. Uh, so they have to take those notes, but when they're taking the notes, they don't want to be doing that.

所以，他们想尽量减少花在这上面的时间，因为他们不喜欢做这件事。这实在不是一件有趣的事。他们考虑过一些可以减少所花时间的选择，比如通用型 AI 会议记录工具。市面上这类工具有很多，但这些 AI 会议记录工具不够好，因为它们无法与财务顾问的 CRM 集成，而且也不清楚它们是否符合 SEC 的相关规定。因此，他们实际上无法使用这份清单上的这些选项。And so, so they want to minimize the amount of time because they don't enjoy doing that. It's just not a not a fun thing. So, the list of options they considered to minimize the amount of time were uh, you know, like a generic AI notetaker. you're you're kind of there's a list of all of those out there, but those AI notetakers were not good enough because they didn't integrate with the financial advisor CRM and it wasn't clear if they were compliant with the SEC's regulations on this. And so there's a list of options they really couldn't use.

所以，当 Jump 出现并发现这种吸引力时，人们就把产品从他们手里抢走了。我想确实有人说过：“呃，亚历山大·格雷厄姆·贝尔发明电话时大概就是这种感觉吧。”把这话用来形容一款面向财务顾问的产品，还真是挺奇怪的。And so when Jump showed up and found that pull, people ripped the product out of their hands. Well, I think one person literally said, uh, this must be how Alexander Graham Bell felt when he invented the telephone. Like, that's a weird thing to say about a product for financial advisors.

说话人：太棒了。这是一段很棒的评价，可以放在他们的网站上。Speaker: Amazing. That's a great testimonial to stick on their website.

说话者：是的。Speaker: Yeah.

说话人：好。那么，一个糟糕的版本会是什么样的？如果没有拉力，会是什么样子？Speaker: Okay. What would be like a bad version of this? Like, what would it look like if it wasn't if there wasn't pull?

发言人：是的。所以，和 Jump 团队聊了一次挺有意思的对话，他们说：“好，不错。财务顾问。他们有这个项目。”Speaker: Yeah. So, fun conversation with the with the Jump team about they said, "Okay, cool. Financial advisers. They have this project.

你知道还有谁总是和客户见面吗？保险代理人。所以也许我们可以直接去找他们聊聊。结果发现，他们的待办事项里也有这个项目：尽量减少记录会议纪要所花的时间。You know who else meets with clients all the time? Insurance agents. So maybe we just go and talk to them. And it turns out they also have the project on their to-do list of minimizing the amount of time they spend taking meeting notes.

但 U 并不存在，因为他们不必这么做。他们没有义务把会议记录录入 CRM。因此，他们现有的选项中，第一个 L 就是不做会议记录——他们本来就这么做。你可以看到，这个框架对他们来说并没有完整呈现出来，或者说，那种推动力并不存在。But the U isn't there because they don't have to. They're not required to put meeting notes into their CRM. So their existing options, the first L are not taking meeting notes, which they were already doing. And so you can see the framework kind of doesn't fill out for them or it doesn't there's not the force isn't there.

它们都没问题。那个不可避免的部分，呃，我明白它为什么这么重要。这就是一个例子。基本上，基本上这里四个都需要。They're fine. That unavoidable piece uh I see why that is so important. And this is an example. Basically basically you need all four here.

是的。所以这里有个很好的教训：要产生真正的驱动力，四项都必须存在。第一个例子里的那个待办事项，在我看来不像是一个具体写下来的待办事项。它更像是一个笼统的待办事项，比如笼统地说“节省时间”。Yes. So that's a good lesson here is all four need to exist for real pull. In the first example that to-do to me doesn't feel like it's like a to-do that just wrote down. It's kind of this general to-do just like generally save time.

对于一个项目来说，做一个 P 可以吗？还是说，还是说这本来就是每位财务顾问待办清单上的专门事项？Is that an okay P for a project for to be able to do just a or is or is was this like specifically on every financial advisor's to-do list?

说得对。所以，这件事我不会说是他们真的写在待办事项清单上的某项任务，但它是他们一直在做的事。它是他们工作流程的一部分，而且他们做这件事的时候，还在努力不去做它。比如，我觉得日历上会有我现在正在做的行动，而项目则是我做这件事时的意图。Speaker: Yeah. So, it was a thing that I wouldn't say it's like actually something they wrote down on their to-do list, but it was like a thing they were doing all the time. It was a part of their workflow and while they were doing it, they were trying not to do it. Like I think there's like a the action I'm doing right now on my calendar and then the project is my intention while I'm doing it.

所以我一边做这件事，一边想着：尽量少花时间做这件烦人的事。And so while I'm doing it, the project on my mental to-do list was like spend the least amount of time doing this annoying thing.

说话人：明白。那么，如果有创始人或产品团队正在听这段内容，而且他们的产品正面临困境，那很可能是这四项中的某一项缺失了。Speaker: Got it. And so if a founder or product team is listening to this and they're struggling with their product, it's probably one of these four is not there.

发言者：对。这四个条件必须同时满足。如果你发现他们有 P，却没有 U，而且 L 也不够理想——也就是说，你发现有人大概想做某件事，但他们眼下并没有真的打算去做，而且现有的选择也不够好——他们就会抱怨，但不会买。如果他们有 P 和 U，但 L 已经够好了，他们就会说：“对，我们现在做的正是这件事，而且正在和 cloud code 合作。”Speaker: Yeah. You need all four at once. If you find P without U and in the L's, so you find something that somebody's trying to do kind of, but they're not actually trying to do it right now and their existing options aren't good enough, what they'll do is they'll complain and they won't buy. If they have P and U, but their L's are good enough, they're going to say, "Yeah, that's exactly what we're doing right now and working with cloud code on it.

我们会弄明白的。"</numerusformWe're going to figure it out."

为什么拉取是被发现的，而不是被创建的Why pull is discovered, not created

说到你谈过的类似事情，就是这种牵引力确实存在。它就像是某种早已存在的东西，而你只是……我不知道，像个猎人一样，去寻找并发现这种牵引力。聊聊这个吧。Speaker: Something along these lines that you talk about is that this pull exists. It's like this thing that's already there and you're just kind of this like I don't know hunter looking for the pull and discovering it. Talk a bit about that.

说话人：是的，当我意识到这一点时，真的觉得特别释然，因为我一直以为自己能力不行，不擅长说服市场，让他们想要我的产品。我当时的想法是：好吧，我做的东西非常有价值，可大家就是不买。我要怎么说服他们想要买它呢？Speaker: Yeah, this was super liberating when I like realized this because I always thought that I was incompetent. I wasn't good at convincing the market to want my product. And it was from that perspective of okay, I'm building something that's really valuable and people aren't buying. How do I convince them to want it to buy?

结果我发现，这种牵引力——也就是他们待办清单上的这个项目——早在我出现之前就已经存在，而且独立于我而存在。这意味着我只需要走出去把它找出来。我不必说服人们产生需求。我还没完全弄明白该怎么做，但我觉得这非常非常难，甚至可能根本做不到。这种感觉很熟悉：就是试图说服别人。And it turns out this pull, this project on their to-do list exists before and independent of me, which means I just have to go out there and find it. I don't have to convince people to have pull. And it's like I haven't quite figured out how to do that, but I think it's very very hard to do if it's possible at all. That feels very familiar just trying to convince people.

你看，这太棒了。它能帮你解决很多问题。呃，我特别喜欢这些想法，也很喜欢它把关于如何找到产品与市场契合度、如何构思点子的那些泛泛建议，变得如此具体、切实。它会直接告诉你：具体看起来是什么样的。Look, this is so great. It's going to solve so many of your problems. Uh, and I love these idea this like I just love how very specific and concrete it makes all of these general pieces of advice around finding product market fit, coming up with ideas. It just tells you exactly here's what it looks like.

嗯，你还谈到另一件事，之前提过这个想法：对他们来说，不买这东西应该会让他们觉得很奇怪。这就像是事情做对了的信号——他们会觉得奇怪：你为什么不买呢？聊聊这个吧。Um, something else you talk about, you mentioned this earlier, this idea that it needs to feel weird for them not to buy it. That's like the sign that this is right, that it's like it's weird. Why aren't you buying this? Talk a bit about that.

说话者：大多数人在大多数时候都觉得还行。考虑到他们的待办事项、已有的东西和其他选择，他们会买我们的产品反而很奇怪，所以买了才奇怪。但一个真正有购买动力的人，不买才奇怪。他们甚至应该把产品从你手里抢过去，因为他们就像一根蓄势待发的弹簧。Speaker: Most people most of the time are like fine. It would be weird if they bought our product given what's on their to-do list, given what they have, given their options, like so it'd be weird if they bought. But a person with pull is weird not to buy. They should actually pull the product out of your hands because they are like that coiled spring.

所以，如果你跟一个有影响力的人聊，谈话基本上应该是这样的：“等一下，你能做什么？好，那我们怎么开始？产品已经有了吗？比如，我们要怎么怎么参与进来？”而你跟没有影响力的人聊的其他任何一次，谈话内容基本上都可能完全不是这样。And so if you talk to somebody who has pull, the conversation should basically go like, "Wait a second, you can do what? Okay, how do we get started? Does the product exist yet? Like how do how do we get on board?" where basically every other conversation you have with somebody who doesn't have pull can have anything other than that.

他们可能会表现得很热情、很友善，说：“哇，太棒了。这真的很有意思。这绝对是我们行业的未来。哇，我能看出这能帮我们省下很多钱。”但他们并没有说：“我现在就需要这个。”这就是你判断他们确实有影响力的方式。They can be enthusiastic and nice and say, "Wow, that's amazing. That's super interesting. That's totally the future of our industry. Wow, I can see how that would save us so much money, but they're not saying, "I need this right now." And that's how you know they actually have pull.

这些对话听起来非常熟悉。Those conversations sound very familiar.

销售对象是个人，而非公司Selling to a person, not a company

好的。那么，在我们开始聊创业过程的整个历程，以及你如何在这一过程中运用这个框架之前，关于拉力框架这个整体概念，还有什么重要的内容需要分享吗？人们最常犯的错误之一，就是认为拉力是公司拥有的东西。其实，拉力是个人拥有的东西。Okay. So before we get into the kind of the whole journey of the startup process and how you can use this framework in that journey, anything else around just the general idea of the pull framework that's important to share? One of the main mistakes people make is thinking that pull is a thing that a company has. It's a thing a person has.

即使你卖的是企业软件，你卖的对象也不是公司。你不是卖给 SpaceX。你卖给的只是那个和你进行普通交谈的人。你卖给的是 SpaceX 的法务负责人，她的待办清单上有一个他们自己无法完成的项目。Even if you're selling enterprise software, you're selling not to the company. You're not selling to SpaceX. You're selling to just going to your genable conversation. you're selling to like the head of legal at SpaceX who has a project on her to-do list that they can't do themselves.

发言者：这真的很有用。所以，并不是说 SpaceX 需要这个。就好比说 Jen...Speaker: That is really useful. So, it's not like SpaceX needs this. It's like say Jen

发言人：是的。需要这个。呃，你是说这是人们常犯的一个错误。他们不会考虑有这种需求的具体个人。Speaker: Yes. needs this. Uh and you're saying that's often a mistake people make. They don't think about the specific person with this need.

说话人：是的，是的。人们很常说，我们卖给的是中端市场的私募股权公司，对吧？但其实你卖给的不是公司，而是里面某位合伙人或运营合伙人，他们具体想做 X、Y 和 Z。Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. It's it's super common to say we sell to right like mid-market private equity companies. It's like you don't you sell to a partner or an operating partner in there who's specifically trying to do X, Y, and Z.

通过亲身经历寻找创业点子Finding startup ideas through firsthand experience

发言人：太棒了。好。那么，我们就从这个框架的角度，梳理一下早期初创公司寻找产品市场契合过程中的几个关键时刻。我想聊聊如何构思一个点子、接到第一通销售电话、谈成第一笔交易，然后再从那里开始逐步扩大规模。Speaker: Awesome. Okay. So, through the lens of this framework, let's go through kind of the key moments of an early stage startup, finding product market fit. So, I want to talk about coming up with an idea, getting your first sales call, closing your first deal, and then kind of scaling from there.

那么，我们先来想一个点子吧。So, let's start with coming up with an idea.

发言者：是的。人们如何利用这个框架，想出更有可能真正成功的点子？作为创始人，我有一本笔记本，里面记满了各种点子，比如“要不我们做一个 API 的 API”之类的。它们全都是这样的产品点子，听起来简直离谱。所以我总是分不清哪些产品点子是好点子，哪些是坏点子。好在，拉力框架是一个先于产品点子的东西，它表达的是：“我相信，现在有个人正试图做 X。”Speaker: Yeah. How how can people use this framework to help them come up with ideas that are more likely to actually be successful? As a founder, I have a notebook of ideas that are all like, "What if we built an API for APIs kind of thing like they're there all these like product ideas and the product ideas all sound unhinged?" And so I can never tell between product ideas, what's a good idea and what's a bad idea. Well, fortunately, the pull framework is a is a thing that's upstream of your product idea that says, I believe there is a person who is trying to do X right now.

我们基本上是那种不买东西反而显得奇怪的人。所以，我发现有帮助的做法是运用“拉力框架”提出一个主张：对于我想到的任何点子，我都相信有某个特定的人正陷入困境。于是，我会去和他们聊聊，看看他们是否愿意——甚至在我们还没有产品之前——尝试向我购买。对我来说，“拉力框架”的核心，就是提出一个假设，判断谁会有购买意愿，然后去验证这个假设。We who basically weird not to buy. And so, what I found to be helpful is to use the pull framework to stake out a claim and say, I believe for whatever idea I have, I believe this specific person is stuck. And so I'm going to go and talk to them and see do they want to do they try to buy from me even before we have a product. And so for me the idea of the um the pull framework is to come up with a hypothesis of who has pull and then go and test that.

然后问题就变成：好吧，你怎么找到这个需求拉动的想法、这个需求拉动假设？你会怎么做？对此我有一些相当强烈的看法。我觉得我们没有足够认真地对待这个阶段。比如说，如果这事关系到你的生死，你会怎么做？你会不会在 Zoom 上做大概 10 次客户访谈，每次大约 30 分钟？And then the question becomes okay how do you find this pull idea this pull hypothesis what do you do for that? I have some fairly strong opinions on this. Like I don't think we take this stage seriously enough. Like if your life depended on it, how would would you would you be doing like 10 customer interviews for like 30 minutes on Zoom?

不。你会全力以赴，亲自去做。我有几个朋友做过一些疯狂的事，亲自和潜在客户一起工作，去亲身感受那种需求拉力。他们要么做出了自己也愿意买的东西，要么就深入到人群中，去寻找那种时刻：有人正试着做某件事，却卡住了。No. You would go all out. You would go in person. And I have like a couple stories of friends who have done crazy things to go and like do the job with the potential customer to feel it firsthand to find that pull firsthand and they've either built something that they would buy themselves or they've like embedded with people to find that like that moment when someone will is like trying to do something and stuck.

说话者：太棒了。嗯，所以这里的建议是，不要坐在那里头脑风暴。也别只是寻找大市场，琢磨哪里可能有巨大的机会。你这里说的，几乎像是换个视角：如果你的生活取决于此，你会怎么找到一个很可能是真实存在、确实有需求的问题？我听到的意思是，要深入细节，亲自动手，真正参与其中。这让我想起一句话。嗯，Naan 现在是 Linear 的产品负责人，后来刚去了 OpenAI。他曾描述自己在寻找机会时会关注什么：他说，我想亲身感受到用户的痛苦，就像他们自己感受到的那样。Speaker: Amazing. Uh so the advice here is don't sit around and brainstorm. Don't uh just look for big markets and figure out where there might be something massive. What you're saying here is uh almost like this lens of if your life dependent on how would you find a problem that is likely to be a real I guess have real pull and what I'm hearing here is get like in the weeds get your hands dirty like get in the way this reminds me of a quote um Naan who is the head of product at linear now he just went to open AAI described what he looks for when he's trying to find opportunities is he he describes I want to feel the pain of the person the same way they feel the pain.

说话者：是的。是的。Speaker: Yeah. Yeah.

发言者：你的意思是，要做到这一点，就得和那些正在构建这个东西的人一起参与其中。有没有这样的例子？Speaker: And what you're saying is the way to do that is get in there with people building the thing. Is there an example of doing that?

说话者：嗯。所以，我有个学校的朋友，他完全不知道自己想做什么。他没有产品构想。他不是……他没有我的笔记本。Speaker: Yeah. So, a friend from uh from school, he had no idea what he wanted to build. He had no product idea. He wasn't he didn't have my notebook.

他当时并没有那些想法。他只是说：“你知道，我喜欢为小企业服务。我喜欢小企业。我想找一个我乐意为之服务的人，然后再从中想出点子。”He didn't have any of that. He just said, you know, I like serving small businesses. I like small business. I'd like to just find somebody I like to serve and I'll figure out the idea from that.

于是他列出了一份自己觉得可能挺有意思的行业清单，然后去跟着这些行业的人观察，和他们一起工作——有时一连好几天都跟着他们一起出工。他先从太阳能板安装工开始，呃，他讨厌他们，他们也讨厌他。于是他转向了下一个行业。And so he wrote out a list of industries that he thought might be interesting. And then he went and shadowed them and like worked with them for like wrote along with them for days at a time. And so he started with solar panel installers and uh he hated them and they hated him. So he moved on to the next one.

他后来逐渐喜欢上了独立执业的物理治疗师，还去和他们待了好几天。他很喜欢他们，他们也喜欢他。感觉挺好的。He eventually worked his way to like independent physical therapists and he went and spent days with them. He loved them. They loved him. And it was like okay cool.

我到底是什么？这里的吸引力是什么？我该怎么办？于是他连续好几天站在他们身后观察。他甚至试着买下一家物理治疗特许经营店，这样就能看到损益表，而且他当时确实在考虑这么做。在这个过程中，他想出了类似这样的话：“等一下，你看起来像是在试图做 X，但卡在那儿了。”What am I what is the pull here? what what should I do? And so he watched over their shoulder days on end. He even tried to buy a physical therapy franchise to like was able to see the P&L and was actually considering it. And in that process, he came up with something like, wait a second, you're it looks like you're trying to do X and are stuck there.

所以，嗯，你在那里应该做的就是亲身体验。And so it's it's um firsthand experience is what you what you should do there.

说话人：太棒了。所以就像亲自去体验它、生活其中一样。你之所以需要这么做，部分原因是不是因为，如果这件事很容易，别人早就发现这个点子了？呃，你为什么觉得以这种方式来处理这件事如此重要？Speaker: Awesome. So like live it yourself and live it. And is the reason you need to do that is it part is it because people would have discovered if it was easy basically somebody else would have found the idea. Uh why do you think that is so important approaching it this way?

说话者：是的，我想我会给出两个理由。一个是，你知道，这些东西并不是凭空从白板上冒出来的。比如说，如果他最终通过头脑风暴才找到的那个想法，竟然是自己突然想到的，那就很奇怪。想想他本来可能想出多少种不同的点子。嗯，而且这也不是那种……这是他只有通过观察才看到的东西；至于在访谈中是否也能发现这一点，就不清楚了。Speaker: Yeah I'd say I'll I'll give two reasons. One is you know these things don't really emerge from a whiteboard. Like it would be weird if his idea came to him that he eventually wound up finding from brainstorming. like think of how many different ideas he could have come up with. Um, and it wasn't something that like it was something he saw only by observing where it's unclear that would have emerged in an interview either.

但我认为第二点更像是一个哲学问题：你是在创办一家公司，去服务这样一类人。创办公司的根本目的，就是服务某些人，帮助他们做成某件事。所以，如果你没有亲身经历，又怎么能做出真正打造出服务他们的产品所需的成千上万个决策呢？But I say the second thing is like more of a philosophical thing which is you're building a company to serve this kind of person. The whole point of building a company is to serve somebody to help them do something. And so if you don't have firsthand experience, how are you going to make the thousands of decisions it takes to actually build something that serves them?

用两张幻灯片验证你的拉动假设Testing your pull hypothesis with two slides

说话者：那么，一旦你有了这个洞见，比如针对这家康复理疗公司，你就会用拉动框架把它写下来，算是对它进行某种压力测试——这就是你所说的“拉动假设”，对吗？Speaker: And is the idea once you have this insight, say with this physical therapy company, you write it out through the pull framework to kind of pressure is that is that you call it the pull hypothesis. Is that right?

说话人：是的。Speaker: Yep.

说话人：那么就聊聊这个吧。比如说，你有了这样的洞察，我很好奇他在自己的物理治疗业务中究竟发现了什么，以及如何开始用“拉力框架”来思考这件事。Speaker: So talk about that just like say you have this insight and I'm curious what he actually found with his physical therapy business and how to kind of start to think about it through the pull framework.

说话人：对。所以你接着就把这些归纳起来，说，好，这就是我相信的那种想法：这个人——这位物理治疗师——正试图削减损益表上的某项特定成本。我真不记得具体是什么了；由于种种原因，这笔成本是无法避免的。而他们现有的选择，也就是请顾问来做这件事，因为某些具体原因并不理想：要么太贵，要么太慢。于是你把这个需求假设写了下来。然后他接下来做的事特别重要：他把它拿给那个人看，问：“这说的是你吗？”那人说：“天哪，是啊，说的完全就是这回事。”他又问：“好，太好了。如果我帮你把这件事办成，你会买点什么吗？”“当然会。”Speaker: Yeah. So you then take that and say okay this is this is the kind of idea I believe this kind of person is this physical therapist is trying to cut some specific cost on their on their P&L I can't actually remember what it was unavoidable for XYZ reasons and um their existing options of getting a consultant to come in and do this wasn't good enough for some specific reason it was too expensive it was too slow wrote out that pull hypothesis and then what he did next was super important which was he said he showed it to that person said Is this you? Person said, "Oh my god, yeah, that's exactly the thing." Said, "Okay, great. Uh, would you buy something if I helped you get this done?" Yeah, totally.

好，太好了。然后他说：“我得去跟另外五位物理治疗师聊聊，确认这种情况能重复出现。”于是他就去做了，他们也有类似的反应。这一点非常重要，可以确保他不是只为一个人开发产品。他给这些公司看了什么？是那四个要点——这是项目的内容、这是它为何不可避免——还是别的东西？Okay, great. And then he said, "I need to go talk to five other physical therapists and just make sure this repeats." And then he did that and they also pulled, which was the really important thing to make sure he wasn't just building a product for one person. What is it that he showed this companies that this the four bullet points with here's the project, here's why it's unavoidable or is something else?

发言者：是的。所以，我其实建议准备两张幻灯片。一张基本上就是拉动式框架。你不必把拉动式框架展示给他们，因为没人看得懂。Speaker: Yeah. So, I actually like recommend having two slides. One slide, one slide is the basically the pull framework. You don't have to show them the pull framework because no one's going to understand it.

你可以直接说：“呃，这是我听到的情况：你现在因为 Y 想做 X，也考虑过这个方案，但出于这个原因，它还不够好。我理解得大致对吗？”然后第二张幻灯片是对我能如何提供帮助的概念性概述。You can just say uh here's what I hear. You're trying to do X right now because of Y and you've considered this but it's not good enough for this reason. You say is do I have that roughly right? And then the second slide is a kind of conceptual overview of how I can help.

听起来，你是在找一种比咨询顾问更快地削减这项支出的办法。我们可以为 XYZ 提供这样的方案——这符合你的需求吗？你希望第一页幻灯片能让他们说：“天哪，没错！”第二页则让他们想知道：嗯，这个方案是怎么运作的？具体来说，我们该如何推进？So it sounds like you're looking for a way to cut this line item that's faster than a consultant. We could offer that for XYZ with does that kind of fit what you're looking for? And you're looking for the first slide them to say, "Oh my god, yes." And the second slide, yeah, how does it work? How exactly how, you know, how do we move forward?

我喜欢你们的东西，因为它非常即插即用，也很务实。我们实际上会展示一张幻灯片，上面是你们让大家填写的实际模板。我也会照着这张幻灯片念一下具体措辞。嗯，比如：你的待办事项里有这样一个项目；由于这个原因，它现在避不开；你研究过的选项有这些，但它们因为这个原因行不通。What I love about your stuff is it's like very plug-and-play uh pragmatic. So, we'll actually show a slide of the actual template you have people use to fill this out. So, the phrasing, I'll read it from this slide, too. Uh there's a project on your to-do like this is the project in your to-do list and it's unavoidable right now because of this and options you looked into are this and they're lacking for this reason.

太棒了，我很喜欢这个想法。也就是说，你做一张简单的幻灯片，拿给大家过目，而这张幻灯片呈现的是你的假设。给他们看之后，如果他们真的感兴趣，会是什么样子？比如，他们会不会已经准备好给你打钱了？Amazing. I love this. So the idea is you have this little slide that you just create and to kind of run by people and the idea is this is the hypothesis and what does it look like when there's pull once you show it to them. Is it like they're ready to send you money?

是看他们的瞳孔是否放大吗？你要观察什么？Is it their pupils dilate? What do you look for?

发言人：是的，你要看几件事。真正特别重要的是，他们确实有购买的意愿。他们会说：“好，很棒。我们怎么开始？”而且他们会这么做。Speaker: Yeah, you look for a couple things. The thing that really really matters is that they actually try to buy. They say, "Okay, cool. How do we get started?" And they will do that.

我有个朋友，他当时在向……销售，后来有一阵子一直在调整方向。但有一次，在他还没有产品的时候，一位制药行业的高管对他说：“如果你能做到这个，我现在就付钱给你。”这时他就知道自己找到了市场拉力。这就是你要找的信号：对方会主动投入，身体前倾，仿佛在说“等一下，你能做到什么？”你要找的不是那种兴趣寥寥、身体往后靠的反应，比如“好吧，多跟我说说”“嗯，让我……好吧，我们会考虑一下”“能不能发更多信息，让我们团队评估一下”之类的。凡是没有在说“我们到底该怎么推进”的反应，都不值得你耗费心力去追。 身体语言，以及人们听到一个想法时那种由衷兴奋的身体反应，竟然能如此明显地表明这个想法是好的，这很有意思。我刚请了 Google Labs 负责人 Josh Woodward 上我的播客，他也有类似的观察：你会看到他们眼里闪着光，眼睛一下子亮起来。这真的很有意思，那就是市场拉力的信号。I have a friend who was selling into he he kind of pivoted around for a while but he knew he found pull when someone an exec in pharma before he had a product said if you can do that I will pay you right now so okay that's the signal you are looking for what you're looking for as well as they're leaning in wait a second you can do what you're not looking for is kind of like leaned out enthusiasm okay well tell me more well let me yeah we'll we'll think about it could you send more information so our team can review that like you know and any of those kinds of things anything that is not like okay how do we actually move forward on this is just not worth your life force going after it's interesting how much body language and just like the physical experience of getting excited about an idea is a sign that it is good I just had Josh Woodward on the podcast head of Google Labs and he's similarly like you see a twinkle in their eyes and their eyes just light up and it's so interesting that's a sign of pull

说话者：对，对。对。你现在看到的情况是，他们现在不买会显得奇怪吗？他们是不是……他们表现得像是不买就很奇怪一样？Speaker: yeah Yeah. Yeah. It's is what you're seeing is it weird for them not to buy right now? Are they like are they behaving as if it's weird for them not to buy?

识别真实的购买意向Recognizing real buying intent

发言者：有没有什么……比如说，你知道，有一种“我会买这个”的意思，也就是他们说会买；但有没有什么迹象能表明他们真的会买？是看肢体语言吗？你怎么知道他们是认真的？Speaker: Is what's is there like a li like a you know there's like the I will buy this idea like they say they will buy it versus a sign they will actually buy it. Is it the body language? Like how do you know they're serious about it?

说话人：所以我把它叫作一种拉取式行动。这不是个特别好的说法，但所谓拉取式行动，就是“我现在就需要这个”。就像我在把它从你那里拉出来一样。我们现在该怎么推进？它可不是那种“哦，我完全能想象我们在第四季度会用上这个”的情况。Speaker: So I call it like a pullshaped action. not a good good uh uh term but a pull-shaped action is like I need this right now. How do like I am pulling it out of you. How do how do we move forward right now? It is not like a oh I could totally see us using this in Q4 kind of thing.

那是个……那是个没有朝我这边拉的东西。That's a that's a not pulling towards me.

当解决自己的问题奏效时When solving your own problem works

这是一种把事情推迟到未来的做法。说话人：比如那种“我现在就需要那些东西”的紧迫感。That's a kind of pushing out into the future Speaker: like the urgency of like I need those now.

发言者：总有人建议要解决自己的问题，这和你描述的情况不同。你推荐走这条路吗？还是不建议这么做？Speaker: There's always this advice of solve your own problem which is different from what you described. Is that a path you recommend or would you recommend against that?

发言者：有个朋友，嗯，比如说在一家叫 Clearly AI 的公司工作的 Emily，她之前在 AWS 做安全工程，后来在那里发现了一个问题，她愿意花钱请人解决，但市面上没人提供这种服务。所以这种情况下，就是解决你自己的问题。没错，百分之百。很多时候，“解决自己的问题”这个说法不太成立，是因为你遇到的事情其实你不会花钱请别人帮你做，只是觉得这东西应该存在，对吧？Speaker: So a friend um so like Emily at a company called Clearly AI she was in security engineering at AWS and she found something there that she would have paid somebody to solve but there was nobody out there. And so in that case it's solve your own problem. Yes, 100%. Where the solve your own problem falls kind of flat a lot of times is um it's a thing that you wouldn't have paid somebody to do for you but you just think should exist, right?

如果是这样的话，你就得对自己诚实。我做过一些项目，开发过一些东西，当时心想：“哦，我觉得全世界都需要这个。”我自己也遇到过这个问题，但如果我照照镜子，就不会说“对，现在就买这个”。大概就是这个意思。这条建议主要是针对 B2B SaaS 这类软件，还是说也适用于消费者应用？If it's and so you have to be honest with yourself. I have done things where I've built things that like oh I think the world needs this. I ran into this problem but if I looked myself in the mirror I wouldn't have said yeah buy this right now. along those lines. Is this advice mostly for B2B SAS sort of software or is this applicable to say consumer app?

所以，我主要是在 B2B 领域，不过我也见过不少人。我挺惊讶地发现，消费者领域的很多人也用过这个。有人把 Spanx 的故事发给我，大意是她做的事情也差不多：一对一地向人们推销，观察他们的反应，从而摸索出后来成为产品规格的各个要素。So, I am mostly in the B2B space, but I have seen quite a few people I've been kind of surprised that a lot of people from the consumer space have have used this as well. And someone sent me the story of like Spanx, which was basically she she did the same thing of um uh like selling one-on-one with people, seeing how they reacted to figure out all the different pieces of what became specs.

发言者：是啊。而且她还出了名地解决了自己的问题。Speaker: Yeah. And she solved her own problem famously.

说话人：是的。就是把她的连裤袜扯了下来。我想事情就是这样。就因为她现在需要。我觉得大概是，嗯，她要去参加活动。Speaker: Yes. Just tore off her pantyhoser. I think that's the story. just because she needed it now. I think it was like yeah, she's going to event.

所以，这是一个很酷的例子。So that's that's a cool example.

那个可能打开转型局面的最后一搏式问题The Hail Mary question that can unlock a pivot

你有这么个想法，我们之后还会多聊聊：所谓“孤注一掷”的做法。说说这个吧。我们一直在聊理想情况下的情形：你发现了某个机会，和人们交谈，他们会说：“天哪，呃，呃，对，这正是我需要的。”但很多时候，事情不会这么顺利。You have this we're going to talk more about this, but you have this idea of the Hail Mary approach. Talk about that. So the Hail Mary, so we've been talking about the happy path here. You find something, you're talking with people and they're like, "Oh my gosh, uh uh yeah, this is exactly what I need." A lot of the time that's not going to happen.

你会得到那种不冷不热的感觉。所以我发现，这也是一个机会，可以像我说的那样孤注一掷地问一句：好吧，这事看起来好像不太行。你的待办清单上有没有什么事，你现在愿意付钱让我做？比如说，你愿不愿意付钱请人替你分担哪件事？这就是一个开放式的孤注一掷的问题。You're going to get that kind of lukewarm feel. And so what I've tended to find is that's also an opportunity to what I call throw the Hail Mary, which is okay, this doesn't seem to be a thing. Is there anything on your to-do list that you would pay me to do right now, like that you would pay somebody to take off your plate? And that's just an open-ended Hail Mary.

我确实见过不少初创公司彻底转型，然后靠那次孤注一掷的尝试一飞冲天，这真的很有意思。有一家初创公司原本想把一套招聘管理系统卖给政府部门。他们和一个人通话时，对方说：“嗯，这还挺有意思的。”但在他们问出那个孤注一掷的问题之后，对方又说：“其实，我现在愿意付钱让你们解决的，是职位描述这块的问题。”这就成了他们的第一份合同，也成了他们的第一个客户。从那以后，他们发展得非常快。I've actually seen quite a few startups totally pivot and take off from the Hail Mary, which has been really interesting. There's one startup they were trying to sell an applicant tracking system into governments and they had a call with somebody and the person was like, "Yeah, that's kind of interesting." But after the Hail Mary question, yeah, what I'd actually pay you to solve is this like job description thing right now. And that became their first contract. That became their first customer and they've grown super fast since then.

发言人：太棒了。所以这里的建议就是，有时候不妨直接问：“我们能帮你解决什么问题？”Speaker: That's awesome. So the advice here is just sometimes feel free to just ask what problem can we solve for you?

说话者：是啊，是啊。这就引出了该如何看待销售这个问题。嗯，我先简单说一点，如果你觉得有意思，我们可以深入聊聊。不过，作为一个超级内向、又爱想太多的人，我以前总是有点害怕做销售。Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. And that like leads to how to think about sales. Well, I'll just give a little and we can dig into this if it's interesting, but like I always was kind of nervous to sell as a mega introvert and overthinker.

就感觉压力很大。嗯，而且感觉我好像得说服你买东西，所以问这个问题会让人不太舒服。但如果你在心里换个角度想想：我只是想看看他们有没有什么事情卡住了，需要帮忙。Like it just feels like a lot of pressure. Um, and it like I need to convince you to buy. And so that question feels uncomfortable. But if you kind of reframe it in your own head of I'm just seeing if they need help with anything that they are stuck on.

如果他们不这么做，也没关系。但如果他们这么做，那挺好的。如果我能帮上忙，我们可以一起探讨一下。然后，呃，这在某种程度上会改变你对销售的看法。And if they don't, that's fine. But if they do, cool. We can explore if it if I can help. Then uh it kind of changes your orientation towards sales.

说话者：我和你处境相同。这样想真的很不错。我只是在努力解决别人的问题，为什么这就这么难呢？Speaker: I am in the same boat as you. And that's a really nice way of thinking about it. I'm just trying to solve someone's problem. Why is it so hard?

应避免的常见陷阱Common traps to avoid

在进入下一步之前，也就是打你的第一个销售电话——基本上是找一个你原本不认识的人聊聊——有没有什么反模式，或者说一些信号、呃，或者人们在想点子时容易掉进去的陷阱？Before we get to the next step, which is getting your first sales call, finding basically finding someone to talk to that you don't already know, are there any anti- patterns or just kind of signals or just like uh traps people fall into when they're coming up with ideas?

说话人：是的，可能性无穷无尽。不过，我见过的最残酷的几个情况是：你觉得自己得先亲手把东西做出来。于是你想出一个点子，然后觉得“我不认为它现在就适合推向市场”，或者“我觉得人们得先看到它才能理解”，接着你就埋头把它做出来。现在有了 AI，你或许可以在几周内（而不是几个月，甚至更久）把这股劲儿发泄出来。不过，呃，你还是希望尽早直面现实的冷风。Speaker: Yeah, the infinite, but the but the main ones that I have seen that are like really really brutal are feeling like you need to build it yourself first. So, you come up with an idea and you're like, I don't think this is ready for prime time or I think people have to see it to get it and then you go heads down and build it. Now, now with AI, you can kind of get that out of your system in a in hopefully a couple weeks instead of, you know, months or not. But, uh, you do not you want to face the cold wind of reality as soon as possible.

所以，别拖延那些能让你真正发现市场需求拉力的客户沟通。And so don't delay the customer conversations where you can actually find pull.

说话人：你也不太赞成找设计合作伙伴，这没问题。能详细说说吗？因为通常大家都会建议寻找设计合作伙伴。Speaker: You're also not a fan of design design partners which is okay. Say more because this is typically very standard advice to find design partners.

发言人：是的。我不知道，也许在某些情况下这会有帮助。但到目前为止，我还没见过它真正起到什么帮助作用。我基本上每次看到有人找了设计合作伙伴，情况都是这样：你招募一位所谓认同你产品愿景的设计合作伙伴，对方给你一大堆反馈，却从来不向你购买。Speaker: Yeah. The I don't know maybe in some context it's helpful. I have yet to see it help be helpful. What I've seen in basically every single time I've seen somebody with a design partner is that you recruit a design partner who quote unquote buys into your vision for the product and they give a bunch of feedback and never buy from you.

他们从来不买，后来你就会意识到，他们所有的反馈都只是把自己当成乔布斯似的在发表意见：一边是“我要帮帮这家初创公司”，另一边是“我有件事是真的想做成”。仔细想想，那些真正有重要事情要做的人，根本不想当什么设计合作伙伴，他们只想把那件事做成。They never buy and you realize that all of their feedback was just like them playing Steve Jobs and there's like I'm going to help this startup versus I have something I'm actually trying to get done. And if you think about it, like the people who actually have something really important they're trying to get done, they don't want to be a design partner. They just want that thing done.

说话人：我喜欢这个。好的。Speaker: I love that. Okay.

快速回顾Quick recap

所以，所以你的建议是不要找一大批设计合作伙伴，而是按照你实际推荐的流程来走。好吧，那我想先聊聊提出想法这个阶段。关键时刻在于获得某种洞见，而这种洞见来自亲身参与、与自己将要帮助的人密切相处。So, so your advice is don't set up a bunch of design partners and we'll go through kind of the process you actually recommend. Okay. So, I guess just to think about this coming up with an idea step. The core moment is some insight based on being hands-on living with the people that you will be helping.

我听说过一个用来描述这个想法的说法，嗯，我想是……嗯，呃，一个利用这种做法的风投闸门。你基本上是在寻找一种亲历所得的独家洞见。没错。你在这里给出的建议是，找到这种经验之秘的方法：要么是你亲身经历过，比如你在一家公司工作——就像亚马逊举的 AWS 这个例子；要么是你深入一线，和处理这些问题的人并肩工作，寻找他们面临的问题。The term I've heard describe to describe this idea um I think it was um uh a VC floodgate that uses this um you're basically looking for an earned secret. Yes. And your advice here is the way to find veteran secret either it's you have lived it at a company say Amazon gave this AWS example or you're on the ground working side by side with the people dealing with it and just looking for problems that they have.

说话人：是的。是的。是的。而且你可以……方法本身其实没那么重要。Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you can like the method kind of doesn't matter.

你可能会在 IASCA 静修营中得到它。就像我一样，你可能从任何地方得到那个秘密；但真正最可能奏效的，是亲自动手，从现实中学习，而不是从理论中学习。It might come to you in an IASCA retreat. Like I you get you could get that secret from anywhere, but the things that are most likely to actually work are like getting your hands dirty and learning it from reality versus from theory.

说话人：沿着这个话题继续聊，假设把你合作过的 50 家公司按创意来源画成一个饼图，最大的几块会是什么？我会说，10% 来自自身经历，90% 来自亲自去获取一手经验。而在这 90% 里，有些人是先卖错了产品，才弄清楚正确的产品是什么。不过，大多数人确实会亲自去做这件事。Speaker: So just to follow that thread, say there's like a pie chart of the say 50 companies you've worked with where their idea came from. What would be like the biggest chunks of the pie chart? I would say 10% um own experience, 90% going and getting firsthand uh uh like experience and within that it's been a bit of like some some of them sold the wrong product to figure out what the right product was. Um but most of them actually go and do the thing firsthand.

那我要退让多少比例？这根本没有余地。Speaker: And then what percentage I retreat? There's no room for that.

说话人：百分之百。这是……这是我给你提供建议时必须做到的。这就是拉动假设。Speaker: 100%. That's that's mandatory as part of me advising you. That's the pull hypothesis.

发言者：好，太棒了。好，那么假设现在你已经有了一个拉动假设。种种迹象表明，这里可能确实有很好的机会。Speaker: Okay, sweet. Okay, so say at this point you've got a pull hypothesis. There's signs that maybe there's something really good here.

开启与首批客户的对话Landing your first customer conversations

在我看来，下一阶段就是找到一个可以沟通、并把它卖给对方的人。也就是说，先约到第一次销售电话。我们可以聊聊你是怎么约到这通电话的，大概会发生些什么，然后再聊聊实际怎么进行这通电话。不过在此之前，先说说怎么找到可以沟通的人。对，这个话题挺有意思的。The next phase in my eyes is finding someone to talk to and sell it to. So basically landing a first sales call. talk about how you go about landing that call and what happens kind of and then we'll talk about actually running the call. But before we get there, just like finding people to talk to. Yeah, this is a fun one.

所以我的目标其实是每天和两到三位潜在客户交流。但要做到这一点，你得先获得第一次交流的机会。你可以通过熟人引荐，也可以用各种类似的方式。我们就来聊聊，如果你没有这些资源，又需要主动联系陌生人，让他们愿意和你交流，该怎么办。So my goal is actually like I want to have two to three conversations per day with potential customers. But to get there, you have to first get your first conversation. So you can do warm intrus, you can do all that kind of stuff. We'll just talk about if you don't have any of that and you need to get people to talk to you cold.

我通常建议创始人迈出的第一步，就是通过 LinkedIn 或电子邮件联系潜在客户，而且要发一种非常具体类型的信息，不是那种“嘿，你有 XYZ 这些痛点吗？想不想买我们的颠覆性解决方案？”之类的话。网上能找到的模板，不会让你收到任何回复，除了“别烦我”这种。所以我把这个阶段的外联称为“创始人魔法”：大致就是“你很有意思，我也挺有意思。咱们聊聊看看。”这样做完全没问题。比如，我帮助过的一家初创公司发出的信息是：“嘿，史努比狗狗投资了我们，我觉得你可能也会觉得这事挺有意思。”The way I typically recommend founders start is to just reach out to your potential customers on LinkedIn or via email and it's with a very specific kind of message that is not a hey do you have XYZ pain points would you like to buy our gamechanging solution like no template you get online is going to get you any responses except for like leave me alone and so I call it founder magic kind of outreach at this stage which is basically like you're interesting, I'm interesting. Let's chat and see. And this is totally acceptable. Like I one of the startups that I helped, their message was, uh, hey, Snoop Dogg invested in us and I thought you'd find it interesting, too.

“你愿意聊聊吗？”这是一条很有意思的信息。每个人都有自己的版本。比如，听这段内容的人也好，创始人也好，都可以发一条有意思的信息，而且不必在信息里说服对方购买你的产品。Would you be open to chat? That's a fun message. Everyone has their own version of that. Like everyone who listens to this or everyone who's a founder like has an interesting message you can send and you don't have to convince them in the message to buy your product.

你只需要让他们跟你聊起来。这种吸引力已经存在于他们的待办事项清单上了。所以这条消息并不能改变什么，它只是为了让他们跟你聊起来。You just get them to talk with you. This pull exists out there on their to-do list. And so the message doesn't do anything about that. It just it's just to get them to talk to you.

所以，只要说点有意思的话，让他们愿意和你见面就行。好，这真的很有帮助。所以你的建议是，不要精心设计一整套价值主张推介，也不要长篇大论地分析问题。别告诉他们你能帮他们解决多大的痛点。So just say something interesting to cause them to meet with you. Okay, this is really helpful. So your advice here is don't craft like a whole value prop pitch problem identification. Don't tell them how much pain you're going to solve.

这就像是用一些有趣的东西吸引他们的注意力。对。呃，Snoop Dog 的例子很棒。还有别的例子吗？还有其他什么思路，可以用来考虑什么东西可能会让某个人感兴趣？It's just like get their attention with something interesting. Yes. Uh the Snoop Dog example is awesome. any other any other examples? Any other kind of ways of thinking about what might be interesting to someone?

发言人：我见过各种各样的开场白。嗯，有些挺随意的，比如：“嘿，我从博士项目退学了，现在在做一个面向内容营销人员的东西，对吧？”就是那种有点意思，但又不是什么特别神奇的东西。嗯，我还见过各种不同的说法，比如：“我曾经是萨姆·奥特曼的幕僚长，对吧？”你知道，如果有人发这样一条消息，效果会相当不错。Speaker: There's there's been a variety of ones that I've seen. Um random ones that are like, "Hey, I dropped out of my PhD and I'm now working on something for content marketers, right?" Like something something that's just kind of interesting enough there that's not super magical. Um, you can have there's a variety of different things I've seen from um I, you know, I was, you know, Sam Altman's chief of staff, right? That, you know, if anybody sends that message, that will work quite well.

不管消息的其他部分说了什么。我还以为你会很有意思，也愿意聊天。所以，就是要找到一些有意思、值得和他们聊聊的话题。嗯，是的。It doesn't matter what the rest of the message says. I thought you'd be interesting and open to chat. And so, it's finding something interesting that's like worth a conversation uh with them. Yeah.

比如我会说，这其实也很看你的终端客户。如果你联系的是暖通空调公司，比如说：“嗨，我是萨姆·奥特曼以前的幕僚长，觉得你可能会感兴趣。”他们可能会说：“伙计，我完全不知道这条消息里说的是什么。”所以你可以说：“嗨，我爸……就是我高中时在家里的水管维修公司工作过，现在我在做一件挺有意思的事。觉得你可能会感兴趣。你愿意聊聊吗？”Like what I'd say is it really depends on your end customer too because if you're doing outreach to like for example HVAC companies saying hey I'm Sam Altman's former chief of staff thought you might find it interesting we're going to say buddy I have no idea what the words in this message mean. So it could be like hey I was at my dad like I worked at my family's plumbing company in high school and now I'm do working on this kind of uh interesting thing. Thought you might find it interesting. Would you be open to chat?

发言者：呃，其中一个隐含要求是尽量简短。听起来只要一两句话就行。Speaker: Uh, an implicit element of this is keep it very short. Sounds like it's just like a sentence or two.

说话人：是的。Speaker: Yeah.

说话人：好。那你怎么看 AI 给一群人群发邮件，而不是逐个联系，并为每个人构思一条独特的信息？Speaker: Okay. And then what's your take on uh AI emailing a bunch of people versus individually reaching out and thinking about some unique message per person?

说话者：我呃……在这个阶段还没见过 AI 个性化真正起作用。它通常只是告诉他们一些他们本来就知道的关于自己的事情，然后他们就会说：“这看起来像是 Claude 写的。”所以我通常不推荐这么做。我也没——我还没发现个性化在这里特别重要。Speaker: I uh have not seen AI personalization work at this stage. Usually what it does is it tells them something they already know about themselves and they're like that looks like Claude wrote it. And so I don't usually recommend that. I also don't haven't seen personalization be super important here.

我喜欢的这些消息——我是说，我会发送的完整消息。你不需要在里面加入太多个性化内容，比如“嘿，我要去参加X会议。我们要做推介。你愿意聊聊吗？”The these messages that I like I said the entire message that I would send. You don't need to actually have a ton of personalization in it or like hey I'm going to X conference. We're going to be pitching. Would you be open to chat?

像这样的内容，即使完全不做个性化处理，也已经足够好了。你分享的所有例子都非常简单，和他们毫无关系，基本上只是说一些有意思的东西。呃，而你不推荐的做法很基础。对。Like something like that can be good enough without any personalization at all. All the examples you shared are very simple and don't have anything to do with them and just say something interesting basically. Uh, and what you what you don't recommend is basic. Yeah.

重点是，你并不是想立刻向他们推销，只是想和他们通个电话。The idea, you're not trying to sell them immediately. You just want to have a call.

说话人：是啊。到时候通话时，我们就能看出你有没有影响力。有的话，你就会把它变成一通销售电话；没有的话，我做什么都改变不了这一点。Speaker: Yeah. And on the call, we'll see if you have pull. If you do, you're going to turn it into a sales call. If you don't, nothing I do is going to change that.

外联基准指标与问题诊断Outreach benchmarks and diagnosing what isn’t working

发言者：好的。你刚开始尝试寻找一些通话机会时，应该先发多少封邮件或领英帖子？Speaker: Okay. How many emails slash LinkedIn posts should you start with? Say you're just getting started to try to find some calls.

说话人：对。所以我通常会从 LinkedIn 入手，因为你我喜欢交谈的那类人，他们的 LinkedIn 主页都很有意思。所以，如果你联系某个人，他们会说：“哦，好吧。这样一来，就能起很大作用。”Speaker: Yeah. So, I tend to start on LinkedIn because the kind of person who you and I like talk to, they have interesting LinkedIn. And so, if you're reaching out to someone, they're going to say, "Oh, okay. That so that's going to do a lot of lifting.

你可以直接开始。”所以，你每周可以在 LinkedIn 上添加 100 到 150 个人，就这么做。每天添加 20 个人，然后等他们接受好友申请后给他们发消息。如果你要发消息——比如说，我不知道，假设你每周联系 100 个人，或者发给 150 个人——我通常设定的目标是，其中 30% 到 40% 应该会接受你的好友申请；接受的人里，30% 到 50% 应该会回复，而其中一部分人应该会答应。大多数人应该会说：“嗯，当然，为什么不呢。”You can just get started." And so, you can add 100 150 people on LinkedIn per week, go for that. Add 20 a day and then message them when they accept the connection request. And if you're sending like if you're connecting with I don't know let's say you connect with a 100 people per week or you send 150 um my typical targets for that are like 30 to 40% of them should accept your connection request and then of them 30 to 50 should% should reply and a subset of them should say yes the majority of them should say yeah sure why not.

说话人：好吧，这是一个非常棒的基准。所以，如果你没达到那个水平，基本上你那封有意思的邮件就不起作用。你应该找一些更有意思的……Speaker: Okay that's an awesome benchmark. So if you're not at that level, basically your interesting email is not is not working. You should find some more interesting

说话人：如果人们不接受你的请求，可能是你的个人资料有问题。比如，他们可能会看着你说：“你看起来不像是我应该接受其请求的人。如果你的请求接受率只有30%到40%，而且人们还不回复的话。”Speaker: is it's could be your profile if people aren't accepting your request. Like they might look at you and say, "You don't look like somebody I should accept this requesting if you're dead 30 to 40% accepts and then people aren't replying."

如何进行你的第一次销售电话洽谈How to run your first sales call

那么，假设你已经约到了一通电话，准备进行一次销售电话，比如说你的第一次。你有什么建议，能让这通销售电话打得很出色？销售电话主要分两个步骤：先是拉动式的需求探索，然后是介绍我们可能如何提供帮助的概念性推介。销售电话背后的理论是，还是那句话，如果你掌握了拉力，对方就会迫不及待地想把东西从我手里抢过去。So, say you've landed a call and you're going to do a sales call, say your first one. What is your advice for doing a great job on the on the sales call? mostly two steps in a sales call. There's the pull discovery step and then there's the kind of conceptual pitch of how we might help step. And so the uh the theory behind a sales call is again it's like if you have pull you're going to rip the thing out of my hands.

我不会一接通电话就兴奋得蓄势待发，像超级蚂蚁似的拼命劝你买东西。不，我只是觉得，如果你有影响力，你就能说服我让你买。I don't come into this call like wired up ready to try to convince you to buy like super ant. No, it's just if you have pull, you're going to convince me to let you buy.

所以我处理这件事时，带着一种就像是往后退了一步的感觉，Speaker: And so I approach this with the vibe of just like waned back,

说话人：很期待和你聊聊。那我们、我们来看看我能不能帮到你。我有一套非常具体的销售通话结构，建议你用它来进入需求挖掘阶段，然后再从需求挖掘过渡到下一步。基本上，开场时你可以说：“嗨，非常感谢你抽出时间。”Speaker: excited to chat. Let's let's see if I might be able to help you. And so I have a very specific structure of a sales call that I recommend for getting into discovery and then transitioning out of discovery. Basically that you start the call, hey, thanks so much for taking the time.

我很好奇。我敢肯定有很多人主动联系你。比如说，你今天为什么愿意跟我通话？这就给了他们一个机会说：“你知道，你提到了 AI agents，我一直在琢磨这件事，也一直在等机会，还看了你的网站。”不管最后具体是什么，他们当场就把整套 pull 框架都替你填好了。I'm curious. I'm sure you get a bunch of people reaching out to you. like why did you take the call with me today? That's a chance for them to say, you know, you mentioned AI agents and I've been thinking about this and I've just been waiting and I looked at your website. I whatever whatever it winds up being and they fill out the entire pull framework for you right there.

那就太理想了。然后你可以说：“哦，这挺有意思的。我能……我能再问几个后续问题吗？”但大多数时候，他们会说：“我不知道。是你联系我的。”That's ideal. And then you can say, "Oh, that's interesting. Let me can I ask a couple follow-ups?" But most of the time they'll say, "I don't know. You reached out to me.

“很期待听听你有什么想法。”说：“太好了。”根据他们刚才告诉你的内容，你可以说：“好，太好了。听起来今天通话的议程安排得很不错。我们就按这个来。你觉得这样可以吗？”得到他们对议程的认可。Excited to hear what you have to say." Say, "Great." You use what they have just told you and say, "Okay, great. That sounds like a great agenda for today's call. We can do that. That does that sound good to you?" Get their thumbs up on the agenda.

然后，你就有理由通过这样的话来问他们一些探索性问题，了解他们的需求：“很好。好，在我们讨论议程上的那些事项之前，嗯，你介意我问几个问题，以便更好地了解你的情况吗？”这样一来，你就获得了提问的机会。对方不会觉得你是在审问他们，因为如果他们有这种感觉，呃，他们就什么也不会告诉你。And then you earn the right to ask them some discovery questions about their pull by saying, "Great. Okay, before we get to those items on your, you know, on our agenda, um, do you mind if I ask you a few questions to better understand your context?" And that way you've earned the right to ask questions. it does not feel like an interrogation to them because if it does uh they're not telling you anything.

发言者：好，几个实操问题。一个是，你应该尽量把这通电话控制在多长时间？邀请时应该说多久？然后，演示应该安排在什么环节？Speaker: Okay, a few tactical questions. One is just how long should you try to make this call? How long should your invite be for? And then where does where does a demo fit in?

你建议在这次通话中做演示，还是另外安排一次通话？对。所以这在日历上几乎总是安排成30分钟的通话。只是，嗯，我发现他们看不到日历上较短的时段，所以就不会出现。Do you recommend demo on this call or doing a separate call for that? Yeah. So, this is almost always a 30 minute call on the calendar. Just um I found smaller calendar blocks uh they don't see on their calendar and so they don't show.

嗯，所以大概聊 30 分钟，然后对要不要做演示还拿不准。如果你们还处于非常早期的阶段，可能就没什么演示可展示。所以，嗯，不过到了后期，你可能会在第一次通话时做一个很简短的演示。我想是因为我在想我和 Jen 的那次谈话，她的建议是先别急着做演示；但那是针对企业销售类产品的建议，不适用于还处在早期、完全基于假设的阶段的情况。Um and so 30 minutes and then iffy on doing a demo. So if you're super early, you probably don't have a demo to show. And so um but later on you might have a very short demo in your first call. I guess because I'm thinking about the Jen conversation I had and her advice is wait to do the demo but that's an enterprise sales sort of product not like an early stage just full hypothesis phase.

说话人：是啊，完全没错，完全没错.Speaker: Yeah totally totally

说话者：好的，明白了。有什么迹象能表明这次会议进展顺利吗？是那种对方身体前倾、不断引导你说下去的感觉吗？Speaker: okay got it. What's a sign that the this meeting went well? Is it this kind of leaning in pulling it from you feeling?

说话者：是的。所以某种程度上，你能够挖掘出“拉力”，或者能够说，好吧，你根本没有拉力。帮我理解为什么这对你不相关，什么才是相关的。这样最后你就会得到一个完整的“拉力”框架：好吧，我理解这个人的拉力是什么，也明白他们正试图拉动什么；或者你能理解他们为什么没有拉力。Speaker: Yeah. So it's kind of you're able to surface pull or you're able to say okay you don't have pull at all. help me understand why this isn't relevant to you, what is and so you come away with a either filled out pull framework of okay, I understand this person's pull and they are trying to pull or you understand why they don't have pull.

说话人：你应该做多少次这样的通话，才会觉得，好吧，这里没有吸引力，该继续往前走了？我没有一个硬性的标准。我通常会这么做：如果你打了五通电话，大家都兴致不高，而且你什么也没了解到，那就说明可能哪里出了问题。我也见过有人打了几百通电话，还是……所以先打五通，然后回头看看你从这些通话中学到了什么。有没有什么吸引力？Speaker: How many of these calls should you do before you're like okay there's no pull here time to move on. I don't have a hard like what I tend to do is if you have five calls and everybody's leaned back and you learn nothing then there's a sign that something's wrong. If you have and I've seen people do like hundreds of calls where they still don't like they so do five and then check in and see what you've learned from the calls. Was there any pull there?

我们有没有什么有意思的发现？比如说，我刚帮过的一家初创公司，他们给银行业打了大概五通电话，但都觉得没什么感觉。不过，其中一个人给他们牵线时说：“是啊，这对我来说似乎不太相关，但你们可以考虑一下国防公司。”于是他们就被介绍到了国防领域。他们对国防一无所知。Did we learn anything interesting? Like I a startup I was just helping out, they had done like five calls into banking and they just felt nothing. But they got an intro from one of the people said, "Yeah, this doesn't seem relevant to me, but you might consider defense companies." And they got an intro into that. They know nothing about defense.

而在第一次对话中，对方会说：“天啊，你是认真的吗？”然后他们就会觉得：“好吧，这里面可能确实有点东西。”接着，他们就改变了自己的拉力假设。感觉你的整个框架和方法有很大一部分，就是要对自己绝对诚实，判断这件事到底有没有戏。我想，很多创始人都会特别兴奋，坚信这事儿是真的；而你的方法就是提供一种验证方式，让他们真正看清哪些有效、哪些无效。And in the first conversation, defense, the person's like, "Holy, are you serious?" And they're like, "Okay, maybe there's something here." And they changed their pull hypothesis. It feels like a big part of this of your of your framework and approach is to just like be brutally honest with yourself whether there's something here. I imagine a lot of founders are just like so excited and convinced this is real and your approach is just like here's here's a way to validate that and be really real with what's working or not.

说话人：是的。我觉得应该把它理解为我们是在通过销售来学习，而不是真的想推销什么。对，不是为了推销。Speaker: Yeah. I think it's thinking of it as we're selling to learn, not really to like push something. Yeah. Not not to push.

我们会边做边学，也会看看他们是否会尝试购买。如果他们不买，也没关系。我们学到了一些东西，可以在此基础上继续迭代。We're we're going to learn and we're seeing if they try to buy. If they don't, cool. We've learned something. We can kind of keep iterating from there.

如果他们真的这么做了，那就太好了。现在我们或许有点线索了。看看这种情况会不会再次发生。If they do, okay, great. Now we might have something. Let's see if it repeats.

说话人：把这称为“拉力”这个想法真是太妙了，因为你总会听到，产品市场契合度意味着你感受到了拉力。你感觉自己被拉着走。这块巨石正把你往下拉，而风则在推着你。Speaker: The whole idea of calling this pull is so smart because you always hear product market fit is you're feeling pull. You're feeling pulled. This boulder is pulling you down. The wind is pushing you.

说话人：是的。Speaker: Yeah.

发言者：嗯，所以它不仅是你要寻找的东西的首字母缩写，也是一种提醒。你要寻找的是拉力，是某种牵引力。Speaker: Um and so not only is it this acronym of what you look for, but it's this reminder. What you're looking for is pull. something pulling.

说话者：是的。而且你也可以留意一下，比如我现在是不是觉得自己在强推？是不是觉得自己在努力说服对方？这就是个危险信号，说明你脑子里或者对话中有什么地方不对劲，比如：“好吧，行。”Speaker: Yeah. And you can also tell like, do I feel like I'm pushing right now? Do I feel like I'm convincing? That's a red flag that something either in your mind or in the conversation is off and like, "Okay, cool.

成功推介的策略Successful pitch tactics

让我们弄清楚那是什么。Let's figure out what that is."

发言者：你想到成功的销售电话时，有没有什么例子？那种感觉和场景是什么样的？推介又会是什么样的？Speaker: Is there an example that comes to mind when you think about a good sales call, what that kind of feels like, looks like, what a pitch would be?

说话人：对。所以，你想做的就是再次引导他们把自己的想法说出来。他们会说，嗯，你知道，我想做一个网站，但那种典型的点击式网站设计工具对我来说实在太费劲了，对吧？所以，这里提到了引导他们说出想法。Speaker: Yeah. So, so what you're trying to do is you're trying to get again the pull out of them. And so they say, um, you know, uh, I'm trying to I'm trying to make a website, but one of those like, you know, those typical point-and-click website design things are just like too much effort for me, right? So, you have something about pull there.

你某种程度上是把这些东西从他们那里引导出来的。他们已经描述过了。所以，有意思的是，一旦有了市场拉力，你的推介就会相当简单。你在这里不是要描述一个宏大的产品愿景，也不是要阐述你对问题的理论。You've kind of pulled that out of them. They've described that. And so, the kind of interesting thing is that once you have pull, your pitch is like quite simple. What you're not trying to do here is you're not trying to describe this massive product vision or your theory of the problem.

你知道他们想做 X，但因为 Y 而受阻。所以在这种情况下，你的推介是：好，听起来你是在找一种不用经历点选式工具那些麻烦就能制作网站的方式。大致是这样吗？You know that they're trying to do X but blocked because of Y. And so your pitch in that case is okay. So it sounds like you're you're looking for something to make a website without all the hassle of a point-and-click thing. Is that roughly it?

然后你用非常非常简短、简单的方式描述它，不要说得太复杂。你简短地描述一下，他们就会说：“对，听起来就是这么回事。”接着他们会问：“具体是怎么运作的？能多告诉我一些吗？”他们这是在从你这里获取更多信息，这时候你就知道，自己开始摸到门道了。And you describe it in a really really small and simple way. Not a really big way. you describe it in a small way and they say yeah that's that sounds like it. How exactly does that work like tell me more? They're pulling more information out of you and that's when you know you're like starting to be on to something.

你是不是会在脑子里梳理这四点的 pull 框架，想着：好，这真的是他们现在需要的东西吗？这件事是不可避免的吗？他们有哪些替代方案？然后把这些都过一遍。是的，这些其实也是我会问的问题。比如说，嗯，如果我一开始问“你为什么接这个电话？”时，他们没有告诉我，那我就会问一个类似这样的问题——And are you in your head thinking through the pull framework of these four points and just thinking through like okay is this actually a something they need right now and unavoidable are there what are their alternatives and kind of thinking through all that. Yeah, those are like actually the questions I will ask too, which is like um if I if they don't tell me at the very beginning when I say why'd you take the call, then I'm asking a question that's kind of like

说话者：就你的 QA 流程而言，有没有什么事情是你们想做、但用现有的工具、方法、团队之类的却一直做不到的？这个问题包含了所有能引导对方说出需求的要素，这样他们就会说：“哦，对，其实我们一直在尝试实现端到端测试自动化，但用现有工具做不到。”然后，如果他们稍微透露了一些情况，我脑子里就有了框架。我知道很多人其实会在通话时把框架放在文档里，边聊边填写。我会想，“我觉得我没有你……”然后你问个问题，说：“好吧，不过如果你现在不做那件事，没关系吗？”Speaker: is there anything as it relates to I don't know your QA process that you're trying to do but you've been unable to do with your existing tools, methods, team, whatever, right? And so that question has all the elements of pull in it so that they can then say oh yeah actually we've been trying to automate endtoend testing but can't do d with you know with our existing tools and so and then if they kind of give me some element there then I have the framework in my mind and I know a lot of people actually have the framework in like a doc during the call and they're filling it out live and it's like I don't think I have the you and then you ask a question you're like okay but like is it okay if you don't do that now?

比如说，你现在非得做这件事有什么特别的原因吗？还是晚点再做也可以？Like can you is there some reason you have to do this now or is this okay to do another time?

说话者：你几乎都不敢开口问，心想：“哦不，这行不通的。”Speaker: And you're like scared to almost ask you're like oh no it's not going to work.

说话人：哦，还有最让人害怕的一种情况是，对方会说：“嗯，你们考虑过哪些方案？我相信你们已经研究过其他选择了。那些方案够好吗？”对吧？然后你听到他们说：“其实是的，我们自己就能做，而且这样就够了。”Speaker: Oh and the scariest one is to say well what have you I'm sure you've looked into other options. Are they good enough? Right. And uh to hear that one uh where they're like actually yeah we can do it ourselves and that's good enough.

但它能防止你再次推出市场不需要的产品。But it prevents you from again pushing a product the market doesn't want

说话者：只是把你生命中的数年都花在努力让它成功上。Speaker: and just spending years of your life trying to make it work.

说话人：是啊。我看起来像60岁，但其实才35岁是有原因的，对吧？别逼我。Speaker: Yeah. There's a reason I look like I'm 60 and I'm 35, right? Like don't push.

说话人：你看起来很棒，罗布。你看起来很棒。滤镜。Speaker: You look great, Rob. You look great. Filters.

你的产品需要好 10 倍吗？Does your product need to be 10 times better?

说真的。这就涉及到一个我们还没有真正谈到的具体挑战：要让人们决定尝试新事物、购买新东西，需要克服很多障碍。现状通常还不错。他们有很多优先事项，也有很多事情要处理。Speaker: Oh man. So this touches on a like we haven't actually addressed the specific challenge which is that there's a lot you have to get over for people to decide to try something new and to buy something new. the status quo is generally fine. They have so many priorities. They have so many things they're dealing with.

就像人们要跨过那个门槛，才能说“我想要这个，我现在就要买”，这个门槛确实很高。这个框架的想法就是跨过这道坎。嗯，更准确地说，是找到那些觉得现状无法接受的人，对吧？Just like the bar to get over for people to be like, I want this. I'm going to buy it now is really high. And the idea here of this framework is to get over that hump. Well, it's to find the people for whom stat the status quo is not okay, right?

关键是找到那些人。你知道，大家总是说改变很难之类的。但你要找的是那些已经在尝试改变、不需要你说服的人。有一种说法是，你的产品必须比现有方案好十倍，别人才会在意。你觉得呢？你会怎么想：这个方案更好，他们试过其他替代方案，但那些都不行；或者有些还行。那它到底得好多少，他们才会在意？还是说只要稍微好一点也可以？我觉得 Jump 的例子又是一个很好的案例：面向财务顾问的 AI 会议记录工具，和其他通用型 AI 会议记录工具相比，到底好多少？如果那些工具解决不了问题，而我们的能，那我们就好得无可比拟，因为我们打通了一个原本受阻的环节。It's to find the people, you know, everyone says like change is hard and all this kind of stuff. Well, you're looking for the people who are already trying to change who don't need convincing. There's this idea that your product has to be 10 times better than the existing solution for anyone to care. Do you feel like like how do you think about okay this is better they tried alternatives none of them do it or some of them do it okay like how much better does this have to be for them to care or is it okay if it's just like you know just a little bit better the example with jump I think again the AI notetaker for financial advisors is a good one how much better are they than the other generic AI note takers well if those notetakers don't get the job done and we do they are infinitely better they unblock something.

所以，这大致就是我判断他们被现有选择困住到什么程度的方式。我也说不准“10倍”这种说法，那东西我脑子里不太有概念。关键是，他们是不是像一根绷紧的弹簧？当我出现时，他们会如何反应？And so that's kind of how I think about how stuck are they with their existing options. And so I don't know I don't know about 10x like I that thing that doesn't quite register in my head. It's really are they a coiled spring and how do they respond when I show up?

说话者：所以我会想到像 Linear 这样与 Jira 竞争的公司。我不知道你是否了解 Linear，你知道它吗？Speaker: So I think about a company like linear who competes with Jira. I don't know if you know do you know linear?

说话者：是的。是的。是的。Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

发言者：我只是很好奇，这是否也适用于这个框架。照我的理解，Linear 经常能胜过 Jira，是因为它的使用体验确实更好。它给人的感觉就是一种精致、流畅、赏心悦目的体验，所以赢得了很多客户，因为用起来很舒服，工程师也很喜欢用它。你觉得这符合拉力框架吗？还是说其中另有原因？Speaker: So just I'm curious if it applies through this framework. So in my understanding, linear wins over Jira often because the experience is just better. It's just like a beautiful smooth uh you know well-crafted uh experience and so they win a lot of customers because it just feels nice and engineers really like using it. Do you feel like that works through the pull framework or is there something else going on there?

再说一次，如果我们用拉动框架来分析这种情况，那么必须满足的条件是：有一类人想要进行问题跟踪，但他们在尝试做与问题跟踪相关的事情时受到了阻碍，而 Jira 的某些体验问题让他们无法顺利完成这些事，因此 Linear 好得多的体验才会对他们真正有用。对吧？就像我做过的那样。所以我犯过一个错误，把这个类比套用到别处，心想：“好，那我只要进入一个类别，提供好得多的 UX、好得多的体验，就能把它拿下。”于是我试着把这套做法用在 HR 软件上，结果发现用户体验对买家来说并不重要，所以他们没有 P。Again, if we use the pull framework to analyze that situation, what would have to be true is there's a certain kind of person who is trying to do their issue tracking, but like they are blocked from they're trying to do something around issue tracking and something about Jira's experience is blocking them from doing the way such that linear's way better experience is actually relevant to them. Right? like I've done. So I've made the mistake of taking that analogy and being like, "Okay, so I can just come into a category with way better UX, way better experience, and I'm going to crush it." And like try that in HR software and uh I try I tried it in HR software and it turned out the user experience was not relevant to the buyer and so they didn't have P.

他们并不在意自己的系统看起来还停留在 Cobalt 或者别的什么东西上。所以这点在那种情况下并不重要。但话说回来，拉力理论会认为，基本上在 Jira 和 Linear 的对比中，有一类人受到了 Jira 使用体验的阻碍。我想，拉力越强，这一切发生得就越快。They didn't care that their systems look like they're still on Cobalt or whatever it is. So it wasn't relevant there. But again, the pull theory would say that basically in uh the case of Jira Jira versus uh linear that there was a kind of person who was kind of blocked by Jira's experience. And I imagine the stronger the pull the faster all this stuff happens.

它在增长。我知道，Linear 花了他很长时间，才让人们开始使用、信任它，并愿意切换过来。所以，也许它的吸引力在于，可能没有那么多阻力，人们只是觉得：好吧，这样我就能做得更快，也更开心。只是花的时间更长。你觉得是不是吸引力越强，公司成长得就越快？是的，我见过不少初创公司，发展速度从零一下子蹿到不知道什么程度。现在大家都在飞速地从零冲向无限。这并不是因为……而是因为他们找到了这些有强烈需求的细分市场，人们会迫不及待地把产品从他们手里抢走。嗯，现在人们听到这些 AI 的推介时，就会想：等等，它居然能做 X，而且基本上马上就愿意买单。It grows. I know linear took him a long time to get get people using it to trust it to switch and so maybe the pull because of maybe there wasn't as much of that blocking and it was more of just like okay I can just move faster be happier uh it took longer is that do you find that just like the stronger the pull the faster the company grows that yeah I've seen a bunch of startups where like they go zero to whatever like everyone now is going zero to infinity super fast and it's like not it's because they have found these like pockets of pull where people will rip a product out of their hands. Um, and it's like people will see these AI pitches now and it's like, wait a second, it can do X and buy basically instantly.

我还见过这种事发生在企业级市场。我见过一笔企业级交易差不多两周就成交了，简直……居然就这么成了。我小时候，企业级交易都得花18个月。真是搞什么鬼？And I've seen I've seen that happen in like enterprise. I saw an enterprise deal close in like two weeks and it's just like that thing did. When I was growing up, enterprise deals took 18 months. Like what what the heck?

我小时候喜欢那样。When I was growing up, I like that.

敲定交易Closing the deal

好，那我们继续下一步。到目前为止，你已经进行了第一次销售通话。我想下一步就是敲定交易。有意思的是，现在还处于早期阶段。Okay, so let's move on to the next step. So, at this point, we you had your first sales call. Uh, I imagine the next step is closing the deal. And I interesting because it's still early.

你甚至可能还没有产品。从“好，我现在就想买”到下一步，这会是什么样？你会……你接下来会怎么做？You may not even have a product. What does that look like going from, okay, I want to buy it now. What do you What do you do next?

说话人：是的。所以，这多少要看交易的规模，但你最好带着某种构想和计划回来。举个例子，我刚才提到的那家制药公司——也就是向制药行业销售产品的那家公司——他去找一位制药行业高管时，直接孤注一掷，提出了引荐请求。那位高管就说：“天哪，太感谢你开口问了。”Speaker: Yeah. So, it kind of going to depend on the size of the deal, but you want to come back with some sort of a concept and some sort of a plan. And so, uh, examples of this, so the pharma company that I mentioned, uh, earlier, the company selling into pharma, he showed up and just threw a Hail Mary on a on an intro to a pharma exec. Pharma exec was like, "Oh my gosh, thank you so much for asking.

我们目前的市场调研就是哒哒哒哒。我们正在努力。情况实在太糟了，进展也太慢了。”创始人当时说：“好吧，我这里连幻灯片都没有。Our current market research is da da da da. We're trying. It's just so bad. It's so slow." And the founder was like, "Okay, I don't even have slides here.

我也是第一次听说这件事。”所以听起来，你想要的是更快的市场调研，内容和你们目前做的调研类似，但在某些方面——我也说不太清楚——就是更好。大致是这样吗？那位高管说：“对，完全正确。”于是创始人说：“好，那我们就这么做。I'm just hearing this for the first time." And so it sounds like you're looking for faster market research that looks like the current research you're getting but kind of I don't know like it's just better in these kinds of ways. Is that roughly right? And the exec was like yes that's exactly it. And so the founder is like okay let's do this.

要不我过几天再来找你，带上一份我觉得它大概会是什么样的模拟稿，然后我们可以讨论一下这是否符合你真正想要的，再决定要不要继续推进。这样的话，就不用做幻灯片，也不用准备别的。直接用 vibe coding 搭出一个大致的布局，看看效果如何，听听反馈，然后问：“好，基于这个，还有什么是你需要了解的，才能判断这是否适合引入你们公司？”对方可能会说：“嗯，价格是多少？”关于价格，你可以用一套现成的话术来谈，基本上就这样。What if I come back to you in a couple days with a kind of mockup of what I think that could look like and then we can we can discuss if that fits what you're really looking for and then decide if we want to move forward. And so in that case, no slides, no nothing. Goes and vibe codes a kind of rough layout of what this would look like, gets some feedback on it, says, "Okay, based on that, is there anything else you need to know to decide whether this is a fit that you want to bring into your organization?" Says, uh, like, "Yeah, what's the price?" And then there's a there's a talk track you can use for price, but that's basically it.

发言人：好的。再多跟我说说这套价格话术。Speaker: Okay. Tell me more about this price talk track.

发言者：是的。所以，拉动框架有意思的地方在于，它能帮你设定定价范围。那么，完成这个项目的价值是什么？或者说，其他方案的成本是多少？那么，L 的部分就是：更快完成这项市场调研的价值是什么？或者说，你目前在市场调研顾问身上的花费是多少？Speaker: Yeah. So the interesting thing about the pull framework is that it can help you set the bounds for pricing. So what's the value of getting the project done or what are the cost of the alternatives? So uh the L's so what's the value of getting this market research faster or what is the cost you're currently spending with your um with your market research consultants?

这两者都能告诉你，市场调研的价值大概是 X。聘请顾问的成本是……我不知道，每年 5 万美元。这样我就有了一个大致的界限，可以说：如果我们每年收 5 万美元，和你现在聘请市场调研顾问的价格一样，会怎么样？这多少能给定价提供一个参照，让潜在客户更容易理解。Both of those can tell you, okay, the value of market research is like X. The cost with consultants is, I don't know, $50,000 per per year. And so that gives me a rough boundary to say, okay, what if we charged $50,000 a year, the same price as your current market research consultants? It kind of gives a frame on price that um that makes it intuitive to your potential customers.

发言人：太棒了。好。嗯，你写这个成交收尾环节时，大致把它分成了两部分：一部分是看双方是否合适，另一部分就是做一堆项目管理工作，把交易敲定。Speaker: Awesome. Okay. Um, so the way you've kind of written about this closing step, there's kind of like two parts. There's the fit of just like is this a fit and then it's just a bunch of project management to get the deal closed.

嗯，我想我们已经花了很多时间讨论契合度和项目管理了。还有什么重要的内容需要讨论吗？Um, so we've spent a lot of time I think on the fit the project management. Is there anything there important to talk about?

说话人：是的。所以你之前和 Jen 做了一期很棒的节目——呃，和 Jen 做了好几期很棒的节目，聊的是销售流程。对于更大的交易，也就是企业级交易，通常会有一个内部支持者，他有影响力，并且会决定：“没错，我想要这个。”然后你就得做大概 17 场演示。Speaker: Yeah. So this is you did a great episode uh with Jen a great couple episodes with Jen on the like sales process. And so in bigger deals, enterprise deals, there's like the champion has pull and decides, yes, I want this. And then you have to do a set of like 17 demos.

你得在四个委员会面前卑躬屈膝。就像有一大堆事情都得做。小一点的交易就不用搞这些。可能只要 CEO 说一句：“嗯，好啊。”You have to genulect in front of four committees. Like there's all of these things that you have to do. For smaller deals, you like don't have to do that kind of stuff. It might just be the CEO who's like, "Yeah, cool.

下一步是你把 Stripe 计划发给我，然后我们安排一次入职沟通。项目管理这一步则要视情况而定。对于大型组织，我通常建议在项目管理方面和买家，也就是内部支持者，聊一聊，大致可以这样说：“好的，这个项目已经列在你的待办事项上了。你希望它什么时候开始取得成效？”他们可能会说：“哦，明年第一季度肯定要见到成效。”好的，这就是一个倒推的时间节点。你可以从那里往前倒推：“好，既然我们需要在第一季度上线，那么从现在到那时，需要完成哪些步骤，才能确保届时部署完成并开始取得成效？”这就为销售流程中的所有步骤设定了一个明确的时间节点。Next step is you send me the stripe plank and we schedule an onboarding call." And so the project management step will depend. My typical recommendation for project management in larger organizations is to have a conversation with the buyer with the with the champion to say kind of okay cool this is the project on your to-do list when does this need to be showing results by they'll say oh definitely Q1 next year okay cool that's a forcing function you work backwards from there to say okay given that we need to be live Q1 what are the set of steps that need to happen between now and then so we can be deployed and showing results by then and that is a forcing function for all of the pro steps in the sales process.

发言人：太棒了。所以说，基本上是在问，我们需要在什么时候展现出成效，才能让你们把它推广开来，然后再从这个目标倒推。好吧。嗯，到了这个阶段，很多人会建立设计合作关系，大概就是这样：好，太好了，我们会和你们一起打造这个东西。Speaker: Awesome. So basically asking when do we need to show success for this to be a thing that you all roll out and then working backwards from that. Okay. Um at this point a lot of people would create basically design partnership arrangements where they're like okay cool we'll build this with you.

我们边做边看吧。我们不会向你收费。呃，按照你之前的说法，你不太愿意做设计合作。呃，我想你在这方面的建议就是直接把它卖出去。We'll figure it out as we go. We won't charge you. Uh per your earlier point you were not into design partnerships. Uh, I imagine your advice here is just like sell it directly.

别想着免费把它们给他们。也别搞什么合作关系之类的。Don't try to give them to for free. Don't set up some kind of partnership thing.

说话人：是啊。是啊。为什么？嗯，为什么要搬起石头砸自己的脚呢？Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Why? Well, why shoot yourself in the foot?

说话人：再说一次，不这么做的原因是，你会发现这样并不能带来最好的结果，也做不出真正卖得出去、行之有效的东西。要建立这种设计合作伙伴关系。Speaker: And again, the reason not to is because it just you find that doesn't lead to the best to stuff that actually sells and works. Building this kind of design partnership relationship.

说话人：是的。如果他们是那种……它基本上会从“我现在就得解决这个问题”这种想法中拿走一些东西。Speaker: Yeah. If they're like it basically takes something from I need to solve this right now

说话人：比如，好吧，现在我在帮你打造你的产品。比如，我们这是在做什么？所以，这对那些真正有影响力的人来说是个负面信号，而对那些没有影响力的人来说则是个正面信号。Speaker: to like okay now I'm helping you build your product. like where what are we doing here? So it's a negative signal to the most to people with who actually have pull and it's a positive signal to people who don't.

说话者：太棒了。好，这完全说得通。比如，如果有拉力，就顺着它走，你需要……对。Speaker: Awesome. Okay, that totally makes sense. Like if there's pull just go with it, you need to Yeah.

说话人：是的。而且你可以卖一些东西，比如说，你可能还没准备好一个完整的平台。早期你可以卖一些更偏服务型的东西。我见过不少初创公司这么做，比如说，他们会说，好吧，我们会推出一款能做 XYZ 之类事情的 AI 产品经理。Speaker: Yeah. And you can sell something that's like, you know, you might not have a full platform ready. You can sell something that's more servicehaped early on. I've seen a bunch of startups do that where they sell, you know, okay, we're going to have an AI product manager who can do XYZ kind of thing.

目前，这项服务由我们亲自交付，同时这套东西在幕后运行。你可以把它定位成一种服务，让他们不会期待下周就能拿到一个完整的、可供企业使用的平台。这样，他们期待的会更像是一项服务；你也能验证市场是否确实有需求，并弄清楚真正该构建的产品是什么。交付过程中，可以结合人工和自动化的方式。For now, it's delivered by us while this thing is working behind the scenes. And so you can kind of frame it so they're not expecting a full platform that like enterprisegrade platform ready next week. They expect something more service-shaped and you kind of validate that there's real pull there and you figure out what the actual thing to build is. while delivering it a mix of manually and automated.

说话人：好，这真的很有意思。播客里经常聊到这个话题，尤其是在进入市场的销售对话中。有人认为服务是个很好的起点，但从历史经验来看，这其实是个糟糕的主意，因为，呃，人们担心你永远无法真正做到自动化，最后只是一直在经营一家利润率很差的咨询公司。所以，你见过这种做法奏效吗？也就是先基本上由人来做这件事，然后再慢慢围绕它打造产品，从而提高利润率。Speaker: Okay, that's really interesting. That's come up a lot on the podcast, especially with go to market sales conversations. This idea of services being a great place to start, which historically has been a terrible idea because uh the fear is you never actually get to a place where you can automate it and you're just running a consulting business forever with terrible margins. So, you've seen this work, this idea of starting with basically like humans doing the thing and then slowly building a product around it that increases margins.

是啊，它确实有缺点，对吧？你确实可能会陷入某种服务型业务的模式，不过任何事都有缺点。Yeah, it definitely has downsides, right? You definitely can get stuck in a kind of service businesses kind of thing, but everything has downsides.

说话人：太棒了。是的。这个想法是，AI 会逐渐承担越来越多这类事情。其中一部分是，你会越来越了解人们在工作中遇到的问题、机会，以及诸如此类的情况。Speaker: Awesome. Yeah. And the idea is AI kind of does more and more of this stuff. And part of it is you learn more and more of what uh what the problem opportunities are and things like that with people doing the work.

好的。Okay.

使用 PULL 框架制定定价策略Using the PULL framework to set pricing

嗯，快速回到价格这个话题。通常来说，创业者都不太敢开高价、报出很高的数字。呃，考虑到情况会变化，而且你会在过程中不断学习，对于第一次报价时该报多少，你有什么建议吗？Um going back to price real quick. Uh classically founders are afraid to ask for big numbers and throw out, you know, high prices. uh knowing that the stuff changes and you'll learn as you go. Any advice for that first price pitch of what number to throw out?

说话人：是的。所以在早期，我更想测试的是用户是否愿意达成交易，而不是是否愿意付费。因此，最初那几位客户的定价，我并不太在意。话虽如此，我最近刚和一家公司合作，他们的第一笔交易就是企业级订单，而且马上要参加一场大型演示日活动，所以他们问：“我们怎样才能尽可能多地从这次活动中获得收入，好让我们在演示日上看起来更出色？”这么做完全合理。Speaker: Yeah. So early on I'm really more testing willingness to transact versus willingness to pay. And so I don't care about pricing a ton in the early couple of customers. That said, I was just working with a company that's their first deal is enterprise and they've got a big demo day coming up and so they're like, "How do we get the most possible revenue out of this so we can look like that for demo day?" Totally valid thing to do.

这种情况下，你要做的就是报出一个数字，而且不能让人觉得离谱。对此我建议的具体做法是，差不多可以把它当成一个案例研究，然后说：“来，针对这个案例谈谈你的看法。”你可以这样说：“对，我们跟其他人聊的时候发现，大家定价的方式都不太一样。有些项目规模比较小，价格是 8 万；也有些项目最高能到 100 万。影响价格的因素大致就是这些，而很多人最后的定价都落在中间。”In that case, what you do is you throw out a number in a way that doesn't like get you slapped. And the specific approach that I'd recommend for that is um almost like using a case study as a hey react to this kind of case study. And so you'd say yeah when we talk to others the way they everyone's kind of done pricing differently. Some of them have been you know it's been sometimes it's been a small project for 80,000 other times it's been up to a million in terms of right and these are kind of the levers here and some people a lot of people wind up in the middle.

你告诉我，你是怎么考虑这件事的？所以你现在做的，不是像我在这边给你那边提报价，而是我们俩一起看一个例子——一个半真实的例子，展示你从别人那里听到的、他们对这件事的想法，然后让他们围绕这个例子尽情发表意见。我喜欢这种做法。You tell me how are you thinking about this? And so what you're doing is you're not like me on this side proposing pricing to you on this side. It's both of us looking at like an example, a kind of semi-real example of what you've heard from others as how they think about this and letting them them throw up on that. I like that.

嗯，我知道这个案例研究的概念实际上是整个框架中的重要组成部分。Um I know this case study concept is actually an important part of this whole framework.

修正你的假设并进入哥布林模式Revising your hypothesis and going into goblin mode

我之后会再回到这个话题，发言者：不过，好吧。我们来谈谈下一步。假设你在 BF2 进行了销售电话，那么完成第一批销售电话之后，通常接下来会做什么？I'm going to come back to it, Speaker: but okay. So let's talk about the next step. So say you have the sales call in BF2. what kind of comes next after this first batch of sales calls that you're doing.

说话人：是的，这就是发展路径可能出现分歧的地方。所以希望你是对的，而且这些人有影响力。太好了。你现在有客户了，该开始交付并不断重复这套做法，同时尝试弄清楚如何实现自动化，并把这一切系统化。Speaker: Yeah, this is where the paths might diverge. So hopefully you're right and uh these people have pull. Great. You now have customers time to deliver and start repeating this and try start figuring out how to automate things and just systematize this.

你走在正确的方向上。很多时候，你会得到一组挺奇怪的回应。你会发现，那些你原以为不买才奇怪的人，实际上买了才奇怪。他们要是真的买了，反而会很奇怪。他们的表现不像是能推动这件事的人。You're on the right path. A lot of the times you get kind of a weird set of responses. you learn that the people you thought were weird not to buy are actually weird to buy. It'd be weird if they did buy. They're not behaving in a way where they have pull.

这种情况下，我通常建议你先做分析。回头复盘这些通话，然后问自己：“好，其中一个真的有吸引力吗？零呢？我们从中学到了什么？”接着提出一个新的假设，再测试一次。明白了吗？And in that case, what I tend to recommend is you just analyze. You go back and review the calls and you say, "Okay, did one actually have pull? Did zero like what have we learned here?" And then you craft a new hypothesis and run it again. Got it?

而且想想看，大多数时候它都不在那里。你的体验也是这样吗？还是说，在这个阶段，成功和不成功大概各占多少？And imagine most of the time it's not it's not there. And is that your experience or what's kind of the pie chart of yes success versus not at this stage?

说话者：是啊，我好像见过一两次，确实有。Speaker: Yeah, I've seen like maybe once or twice where it was there

说话者：呃，从一开始就是这样，这很神奇——第一次就做对的时候，你会觉得自己像个英雄。呃，很多时候，我们的方向错得离谱，甚至完全反着来，自己却浑然不觉，所以你就孤注一掷地试上几次，这样就能走上正轨；或者你会做些疯狂的事，比如有个朋友去参加会议，安排了 20 场会面，然后就说：“我不知道该怎么办。你告诉我该为你做什么，之类的。”我管这叫“哥布林模式”：就是彻底放开手脚，做些不健康的事，看看现在到底谁愿意买我的东西，然后再据此提出假设。Speaker: uh from the beginning and that's magical like you feel like a hero when you when you get it right the first time. Uh a lot of times it is uh it is like we're so wrong and backwards that we don't know and so you just ask a Hail Mary a couple times and that gets you on the right path or you like do something crazy where a friend just uh like went to a conference and scheduled 20 meetings and just was like I don't know what to do. You tell me what to build you or something like that. I call that goblin mode where you just just going all out and doing unhealthy things to see like who will buy something from me right now to then generate your hypothesis out of.

说话人：多说说哥布林模式。这太棒了。Speaker: Say more about goblin mode. This is amazing.

说话人：对。你知道，就像狗狗突然撒欢、到处疯跑的时候，对吧？我脑子里对创始人进入“哥布林模式”的理解就是这样，就像……Speaker: Yeah. You know like when when dogs do that like get the zooies right and they just like that's that's the thing I have in my mind for what goblin mode is as a founder where it's like

说话者：这是一件好事还是坏事？Speaker: and this is a good thing or not a good thing?

说话人：这就像是紧急情况下砸碎玻璃取用的东西。呃，我觉得有些创始人其实一直都是这么做的：比如，好，明天欧洲有个会议，那里有这些潜在客户，可我没法让他们跟我聊聊，所以看来我现在得马上上飞机赶过去，对吧？就是为了现在就能见到客户，去做一些有点疯狂的事。呃，是啊，有些人可以一直这么做；像我这样年纪渐长的人，偶尔还能来这么一次。Speaker: It's a it's a break glass in case of emergency thing. uh where it's um and I think some founders actually operate like this all the time where it's like okay there's actually a conference tomorrow in Europe that has these potential customers there I can't get them to talk to me so looks like I'm going to get on a plane right now and go there right it's just doing uh kind of somewhat crazy things with the goal of getting in front of customers right now and uh yeah like some people can do this all the time uh others like me who are get an old like I can I can pull this out once in a while.

说话人：偶尔也得释放一下哥布林模式。所以你的意思是，有时候这样确实能奏效，比如彻底放飞自我，到处跟人聊天，寻找这些来之不易的秘密。Speaker: Get that goblin mode out sometimes. So the idea there's and you're saying this sometimes this can work just like going nuts just like going talking to everyone looking for these earned secrets.

发言人：对。举个例子吧，这例子有点疯狂。我有个朋友正在创办一家叫 Teero 的公司，为牙科诊所招聘牙科卫生师。他的“哥布林模式”就是让父母挨家挨户跑不同的牙科诊所，只为找人聊聊、争取他们成为客户。结果还真行。Speaker: Yeah. And one example of this, like it's kind of a crazy example, but a friend's building a company called Teero, which does dental staffing uh for dental hygienists. And he his version of goblin mode was his parents went doortodoor to different dental offices to just get people to talk to him about about being customers. And that worked.

所以，像那种奇怪的东西也能奏效。And so it's just like weird stuff like that can work.

说话人：太棒了。好。所以你的意思是打几通销售电话，比如说五通。是这个意思吗？先打个五通，然后评估一下。Speaker: Amazing. Okay. So you say do a couple sales calls, say do five. Is that is that kind of the idea? do like five and assess.

这算是粗略的启发式方法吗？好。嗯，回应你刚才的观点，大多数时候你会发现，好吧，这里不是……这里没有拉力。抱歉。Is that rough heristic? Okay. So, say to your point, most times you'll find, okay, this is not there's no pull here. Sorry.

说话人：你会怎么做？你会回到起点，亲自参与其他一些小生意之类的事情，还是你有什么建议？Speaker: What do you do? Do you go back to the beginning, go hands hands-on with some other small business sort of thing or what do you recommend?

发言者：是的。所以那里有不同的路径。希望你已经问了那个孤注一掷的问题，并从中了解到一些值得深入探究的东西。Speaker: Yeah. So, different pathways there. Hopefully, you've asked the Hail Mary question and you've learned something there that's like worth double clicking into.

发言人：最后再问一个碰碰运气的问题：现在有没有什么我们能帮忙处理的？对，那是你待办清单上的一个问题。Speaker: And the Hail Mary question is just like what is there anything that we can do to with Yeah. right now that is a problem on your to-do list.

发言人：对。对。没错。所以你就生成了一些新信息，然后可以用这些信息来……Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And it's and so you've generated some new information that you can then use to like

说话人：再来一组五个。Speaker: do another set of five.

说话者：如果不是这样的话，那就回去亲自了解一下，再试一次。Speaker: If not, then yeah, you just go back, get some firsthand knowledge, try it again.

发言人：太棒了。好。那么，这个流程非常简单。先提出一个拉动假设，填写这份模板，然后安排冷启动外联，发送一条出人意料、能引起人们注意的信息，让他们觉得你很有意思。Speaker: Awesome. Okay. So, so this process is very straightforward. Have a pull hypothesis, fill out this template, schedule basically cold outbound with this surprising message that'll get people's attention, think you're interesting.

呃，先大概打五通电话，摸摸情况，看看有没有拉力？如果没有，就抛出几个孤注一掷的问题，可能还得进入“哥布林模式”找找看。呃，再想出一个新的拉力假设，再打五通电话，如此反复，直到你觉得：“噢，哇，我们找到这种拉力了。”对。Uh, do five calls roughly, get a sense, is there pull or not? If there's not pull, throw out some Hail Mary questions, maybe enter goblin mode to look for something. Uh, come up with another pull hypothesis, do five more calls, and repeat until you're like, "Oh, wow. We've got this pull." Yep.

这样你就拥有了一门生意。And then you have a business.

说话者：好了，开始了。好的。Speaker: There we go. Off to the races. Okay.

设计能够留住客户的新手引导流程Designing onboarding to make customers stay

那么，假设你真的找到了一个有吸引力的东西，让大家都觉得“我现在就需要这个”。接下来会怎样？你们大概会怎么做？是不是要先搭建一套新用户引导流程，然后再想办法让他们一直满意？整个流程是什么样的？So, say you've actually found something, something that is pulling and people are like, I need this now. What comes next? What do you kind of the there's kind of like the building onboarding process and then just keeping them happy? What's that process like?

对此你有什么建议？What advice do you have there?

说话人：是的，我发现自己其实没有一套好的思路来考虑人们购买之后会发生什么，所以我感觉自己就像那只得到一辆车的狗，只是把软件扔过篱笆，然后说“祝你好运”。嗯，后来我吃了苦头才学到，留存非常重要，而且这件事并不显而易见。我对销售后的交付是这么理解的：基本上，每个购买了产品的人都注定会流失，除非他们达到 X；一旦达到 X，他们就很难再流失。所有交付工作，所有一切，都是为了弄清楚 X 是什么，以及如何设计一列子弹头列车，让每位客户都能抵达那里。Speaker: Yeah, so I found that I didn't really have a good way to think about what happens after people buy and so I felt like the dog who got a car and I just kind of like threw the software over the over the over the fence and like good luck. Um what I've learned since then the hard way obviously is that like retention is super important and it's not obvious. And so the way I think about like delivery post sale is that basically everybody who buys is guaranteed to churn until X in which case they're weird to churn. And all delivery is all everything is about figuring out what is X and how do you design a bullet train so every customer gets there.

所以，X 你可能会觉得，比如说，他们在用这个产品，或者他们的 NPS 很高之类的。但几乎从来都不是这些。Mark Rober 有一个这样的留存先行指标。对 Slack 来说，这个指标就像是：你在最初的 X 时间内发了 10,000 条消息，或者 1,000 条消息。如果你达到了这个指标，那你要是流失了反而会很奇怪。And so X is, you might think of it as, oh, they're using the product or they have high NPS or whatever it is. It's almost never those things. Mark Rober has this kind of leading indicator of retention, which for Slack was like you sent 10,000 messages or a thousand messages in your first X amount of time. If you hit that, it's like it'd be weird if you churned.

你看，它是留存率的先行指标。我的初创公司曾向餐厅提供留存软件。如果他们在购买后的头两周内收到通知，得知有人即将离职，而且他们还能设法挽留这个人，他们简直会兴奋得不得了。他们会把这件事告诉所有朋友；如果他们后来停止使用我们的软件，反倒会很奇怪。You It's the leading indicator of retention. For my startup, we gave retention software to restaurants. If they got a notification that somebody was going to quit that they could prevent within the first two weeks uh after purchase, they would like go insane. They would tell all of their friends about it and they it would be weird if they churned.

所以我们就围绕这一点设计了入门流程。我建议，一旦有几个人表示愿意尝试，别只是把产品扔给他们，发个登录信息就听天由命。你也要亲自去交付，亲自带他们上手，这样能学到很多。还要不断追问：“你现在会转化吗？现在会吗？”试着找到那个时刻——他们会说：“哦，好吧，不错，我离不开这个了。”And so we just designed the onboarding process to that. And so what I recommend is once you have a couple people who are saying yes, don't just like throw the product over and like send them a login and pray. go deliver firsthand as well and you're going to learn a ton from that and keep asking the question like are you going to turn now? Are you going to turn now? Like what and try to find the moment when when they're like oh okay cool I can't live without this.

客户流失能让你了解什么样的客户才是你的理想客户What churn can teach you about your ideal customer

我很喜欢你的思维方式：你会把事情拆解成各种公式、模板，好像一切都有章可循。当然，现实显然没那么泾渭分明，但我觉得这确实很有帮助，能让大家用这种非常有条理的方式去思考：事情进展顺利时是什么样的，如何找到一个点子，然后说，好，这里该填什么；再具体谈谈它是否奏效、需要如何调整。关于用户流失这部分，有没有什么迹象能说明情况不妙？比如，糟了，大家都在流失——有没有什么信号能表明，他们原以为自己已经加入了，但其实这行不通？在这个阶段，有没有什么迹象可以留意？I love how your mind works where it's these formulas and these templates and just everything is this and obviously it's not like this cleancut but it's really helpful I think for people to just think of it in these very structured ways uh to take these general ideas of what it looks like when things are going well and how to find an idea to just like okay here's what you plug in talk about the specific thing it's working adjust so this is great on the churn piece is there what's like a sign okay shoot everyone's turning just like a sign of like okay they thought they in but that it's not working. Anything there of just like what's a sign at this stage?

好吧，也许它并不是不工作，而是确实在工作。Okay, maybe it's not working versus it is.

发言者：是的。所以，如果所有人都在流失，你却不弄清楚原因，这是不可接受的。所以，呃，我实际看到的是，很多情况下，比如很多横向产品，都会有很多用户流失。所以，我认识的一家初创公司，他们做的是一款横向 AI 工作流产品。Speaker: Yeah. So, if everybody's churning the it is unacceptable for you to not figure out why. And so, uh what I've actually seen is in a lot of cases like for a lot of horizontal products, you're going to have a lot of like user drop off. So, one one startup I know like they were a horizontal AI workflows product.

不错。欢迎加入俱乐部，对吧？但他们发现，作为一款横向 AI 工作流产品，只有一两类客户会持续使用它，其他人最终都会流失。所以，如果有一大批人流失，也就是说，你们的客户中有 90% 以上都在流失。Cool. Join the club, right? But they found through being a horizontal AI workflows product that like one or two kinds of customers kept using it while everyone else was churning. And so if a bunch of people are churning, 90% plus of your c your you customers are churning.

首先，真的很抱歉，这太糟了。你知道，每天早上四点醒来时都浑身是汗，确实很难受。不过遇到这种情况，你往往能弄明白原因。是你做了什么，还是他们那边出了什么问题？First of all, I'm sorry it sucks. It really, you know, you wake up at 4 a.m. every morning just sweating. But in that you often can figure out why. And is it something that you're doing or is it something about them?

这能告诉你，哪些客户群真正有需求，值得我们去销售、交付并留住。比如，对于那款横向工作流产品，他们发现货运代理正用它来处理某个特定工作流，于是他们把整个公司转向专注于这一领域。就这样，他们从一家提供高流失率、低价横向产品的公司，转型为一家面向货运代理、提供高端产品的公司。And that can tell you, okay, who actually had pull that we can sell, deliver, retain and for like that horizontal workflows product, they found that freight forwarders were using it for one specific workflow. And so they pivoted the entire company to focus on that. And so they went from being this horizontal product with massive turn, low price to a very premium product for freight forwarders.

说话者：没有哪个时刻会让人觉得，好吧，我们搞明白了，我们就要大获成功了。创业旅程中的每一刻都充满不确定性。不过，到目前为止，这个过程最棒的地方在于，你每走一步，就会越来越确定至少这里确实有点东西。然后，你又会一直怀疑：这件事最终能做多大？我记得我和 Databricks 的创始人聊过，他们现在已经是一家价值几万亿美元的公司了。他说过类似这样的话：即使他们的 RR 达到 1 亿美元时，他们仍然很不确定这件事能不能长久。我觉得这种情况很常见。所以，这本身就是一个话题，就是……Speaker: There's no point at which like, okay, we figured it out. We're going to be a massive success. Like every moment of the startup journey is a uncertain moment but what's great about this process so far is every mo step you get it's more and more certain there's something here at least and then there's like the in forever in doubt of like how big can this get I remember talking to the founder of data bricks which is now like a bazillion trillion dollar company and he said something like even at 100 million RR they were still very unclear if this was a thing that will last and I think that's very common so that's like its own topic of just like

说话者：知道这一点真好。知道这一点真好，因为大家……是啊。大家都在问：“这怎么才能发展成一件大事？”我也不知道。我们会想办法的。Speaker: that's nice to know That's nice to know because everyone Yeah. Everyone's like, "How will this become a big thing?" It's like, I don't know. We'll figure it out.

发言人：是的。Speaker: Yeah.

构建可重复的案例研究生产流程Building a repeatable case study factory

这就是一步一步来的过程。在这段对话里，我脑海中的最后一步，就是你所说的这个用户案例工厂：它能带你从事情开始奏效，走到“好，现在我们可以建立一套可重复的系统，帮助我们实现增长”。聊聊这个吧：它是什么样的，又是关于什么的。It's just kind of one step at a time and so in this conversation, the final step in my mind is this idea you have of this um use user case study factory, which kind of takes you from things are starting to work to okay, now we can create a repeatable system that helps us grow. So talk about that, what that looks like, what that's about.

说话人：是的。所以每次我聊到这件事，大家都会一副听得云里雾里的样子，所以我还没找到一种有效的方式来谈这件事。先提醒一下，我觉得这是所有事情里最重要的一点：你如何看待自己的创业公司？你对自己的创业公司有怎样的概念模型？你需要有一套思考创业公司的方式，才能知道如何以人所能达到的最快速度发展它。Speaker: Yeah. So this is the thing that whenever I talk about everyone just like everyone's eyes glaze over and so I haven't found found a useful way to talk about this yet. So just pre-warning I think it's the most important thing in all of this which is how do you think about your startup? What's your conceptual model for your startup and like you need to have a way to think about your startup to know how to grow it as fast as humanly possible.

所以最终的情况是，你找到一个有影响力的人，把某种产品、服务之类的东西交给他们，然后他们把它从你手里拿走。结果发现，他们当时想做 X，现有的选择无法满足 Y，而你提供的 Z 帮他们扫清了障碍。这听起来很像你会放在网站上展示的案例研究。这很有用，因为，好吧，作为创始人，我的工作不是制作一百个完全不同的案例研究，因为那样无法规模化。So what winds up happening is you find somebody who has pull you give them a product or service or whatever that they pull out of your hands. So, it turns out they were trying to do X, their existing options weren't good enough for Y, and you offer Z that helps unblock them. That sounds a lot like a case study that you would feature on your website. And it's a helpful thing because, okay, my job as a founder is not to produce a hundred different case studies, totally different case studies, because that's not scalable.

那是不可重复的。我想打造一个案例：客户在购买前和购买后都会说“太棒了，当然要买”，然后把这个过程重复一百万次。这个模型帮我从认为创业公司由许多不同的东西组成，转变为认识到：不，创业公司就是把同一个案例无限次重复的东西，而我做的一切，都是为了打造一座能够反复复制这个案例的工厂。That's not repeatable. I'm looking to build one case study where a customer says hell yes before they buy and after they buy and just repeat that a million times. And so that model helped me go from thinking that startups were a bunch of different things. I need to know all these different things to like no a startup is just a thing that repeats one case study infinite times and all the stuff that I do is to build a factory for repeating that case study.

如果我做得对，就会有一个案例研究，让客户说：“太棒了。”然后他们会自己一步步走完案例研究工厂的每个环节。这些环节包括：管道环节——我们如何让人们主动来和我们交流？销售环节——我们如何把潜在客户转化为真正的客户？以及案例研究工厂的交付环节——我们如何让已经成为客户的人变得古怪，而不是流失？And if I do this right, there's a case study where customers say, "Hell yes." And they pull themselves through each step of the factory. The steps are the pipeline step, how do we get people to talk to us? Sales step, how do we turn potential customers into actual customers? And the delivery step of the case study factory, which is how do we get people who are customers to be weird, not to churn.

所以，我们做的所有事情都可以纳入这个案例工厂。如果你在脑海中这样看待它，就能极大简化初创公司的运作方式。接着，你就可以运用约束理论。接下来我们稍微钻研一下制造业的知识，看看你的案例工厂，然后问：“好，我们增长的瓶颈究竟在哪里？”And so everything we do kind of fits into this case study factory. And if you see this in your mind, it radically simplifies like a startup how it works. And then you can use like the theory of constraints. We're going to get really nerdy for a second from manufacturing to like look at your case study factory and say, "Okay, where is our where is the bottleneck to our growth?

是因为我们……不是，我们的销售管道不够充足吗？好，行。如果这是瓶颈，那现在唯一重要的就是它。我们先解决这个瓶颈，然后再处理下一个。下一个问题是，我们的成交率低于应有水平。Is it that we're not like we don't have enough pipeline?" Okay, cool. If that's the bottleneck, then that's the only thing that matters right now. Let's solve that bottleneck and then we'll move to the next one. The next one is our close rate is lower than it should be.

好，很棒。这就是我们的瓶颈。现在我们要全力投入到这件事上。这样一来，案例研究工厂模式就能帮你思考自己的初创公司，并准确判断在任何一个时点应该把重点放在哪里。Okay, cool. That's our bottleneck. Now we're going to go all in on that. And so it lets you go like the case study factory model gives you a way of thinking about your startup and knowing exactly where to focus at any one point in time.

说话人：这是一个非常有意思的思考方式。我们不是一味地想多签下客户、多促成交易，而是在构建案例研究——有点像从我们正在洽谈的这家公司最终会成为怎样的案例研究，反向推导。比如说，我们正在和 SpaceX 洽谈，我们希望这些案例在所有洽谈中的公司之间看起来都保持一致。人们把这叫作可复制的销售流程，但我喜欢这样一种想法：这有点像从新闻稿反向推导，只不过是针对销售的。Speaker: It's a really interesting way to think about it where instead of we are trying to just get more customers closed and more deals closed instead we're looking we're building a case studies like you almost like working backwards from what's the case study going to be of this company we're talking to. Say we're talking to SpaceX just like we want it to look consistent across all the companies we're talking to. People talk about call this repeatable sales motions, but I like the idea of thinking of like it's almost like working backwards from the press release, but for sales,

发言者：我们要写的关于SpaceX的案例研究是什么？好，下面是我们如何争取到他们的，如何把产品卖给他们的，以及如何交付的。Speaker: what is the case study we're going to write about SpaceX? Okay, here's how we got them. Here's how we got sold them. Here's how we delivered it.

演讲者：然后就是创建一些一致、可重复的案例研究，以便之后能够分享。对，没错，然后销售就会变成这样：嗨，这是我们交付的案例研究，这跟你相关吗？然后实际上你可以把案例研究展示给别人，他们会说，对，这也是我想要的。于是它就成了一种工具，你可以说：对，你看起来不像我们的案例研究对象，所以这可能会需要很多工作，而且可能不太合适。你可以用它来筛选或淘汰潜在客户，也可以让人们了解你们是做什么的。Speaker: And then here is just like create like consistent repeatable case studies that you will later be able to share. And yeah and ex exact and then and then what sales becomes is it becomes kind of like hey this is the case study that we deliver on is this relevant to you or not and it becomes actually like you can show the case study to people they say yeah that's actually what I want as well and so it becomes this kind of tool and you can say yeah you don't look like our case study so it's probably going to be a lot of work and it might not be a good fit and you can use it for qualification disqualification and for people to understand what you do.

这挺有意思的。现在有一个完整的主题，讲的是构建软件工厂，嗯，你知道，让产品自己构建；但这实际上是你正在构建的另一种工厂，甚至比单纯的销售、用户和案例研究工厂更为广泛。That's that's funny. There's this whole theme now of building software factories um where you know product build itself but um this is really another version of a factory you're building which is even the broader version of just the sales the user the case study factory.

发言人：是的。是的。我们这里不开发软件，我们做的是案例研究。Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. We don't make software here. We make case studies.

发言者：所以，这、这、这就是你的建议吗？就是换个角度这么想，比如说我们在这里做案例研究。对。有意思。Speaker: So is that is that is that your advice? Just like think of it that way like we make we make case studies here. Yeah. It's interesting.

而且你并不需要真的分享并撰写一份案例研究。这只是一个思维模型，帮助你思考自己想要构建的销售市场进入方案或相关工作。And it's not like you need to actually share and write up a case study. It's just a mental model for how to think about what you're trying to build as an a sales go to market or work.

发言者：是的，完全没错。好消息是，如果你有“拉动式”框架，只要描述我们是如何帮助他们的，以及他们取得了什么成果，就有了一个案例研究。Speaker: Yeah, totally. And the good news is if you have the pull framework, then you just describe here's how we helped them and what they accomplished and you have a case study.

说话人：太棒了。Speaker: Amazing.

在成熟企业中应用该框架Applying the framework inside established companies

好，有几件事我想聊聊，因为我们基本上已经到流程的最后了。嗯，有几件事是社区里提出来的，还有一些是你刚才提到的，我想快速聊一下。第一，你有个说法叫“hell yes 客户”。能不能多讲讲？你提到，在找人购买并使用产品时，有个想法是，他们得是那种打心底特别愿意的客户。Okay, there's a couple things I want to touch on because this is the end of the process basically. Um there's a few things I want to touch on uh that came out of the community and things you mentioned real quick. One is you have this term hell yes customers. Say more about that is um you mentioned of like when you're looking for someone to buy it and then use it there's this idea of they want them to be hell yes.

是的。基本上就是这样一类人：还没等你卖给他们，他们就主动把产品从你手里拿走；买到之后，又像上瘾了一样使用它。所以他们可能会直接说“太棒了，当然要买”。但关键在于，他们不买才奇怪，流失也才奇怪。Yeah. It's it's basically somebody who pulls the product out of your hands before they buy and then afterwards they use it as if it is addictive. And so they might literally say hell yes. But what matters is they're weird not to buy and weird to churn.

而这个过程主要是他们主动找上门，而不是你去推销。这就是与你最匹配的客户。你的工作只是找到更多和他们基本一模一样的人。And that process is mostly them pulling versus you pushing. That's your perfect fit customer. Your job is just to find more who are basically clones of them.

发言者：好。嗯，我想强调的另一点是，你建议不做试点、不做概念验证，也不找设计合作伙伴。直接告诉客户：我们要把这个卖给你们，部署上线，而且效果会非常棒。Speaker: Okay. Uh the other kind of point I want to reinforce is you recommend no pilots, no point proof of concepts, no design partners. Just go straight to we're going to sell this to you and roll it out and it's going to be amazing.

发言者：没错。有时候你会这么做，而他们会说：“好吧，但我们这边的采购方式是，实际上需要先试点。”Speaker: Yep. And like sometimes you're going to do that and they say, "Okay, but the way we buy here is we actually need to pilot it."

说话人：好，酷。不过别主动——我看到 offer 了。太棒了。好。Speaker: Okay, cool. But don't proactively I see offer. Awesome. Okay.

社区提出的另一个重要问题，是从外部视角来看：这听起来好像只适用于初创公司和创始人，但实际上也适用于……我们一开始提到过，不过这里再强调一下，对于那些正在开发新功能、新业务线之类项目的大公司也是如此。嗯，聊聊如果你是在一家成熟公司里打造新产品，在这个过程中有没有什么事情你会用不同的方式去考虑。我最近正在帮几家公司推出它们的第二款产品。Another big question that came out of the community is from an external perspective. This feels like this just for startups and founders, but this actually applies for and we mentioned this at the beginning, but just to reinforce this point for larger companies that are working on new feature, new business line sort of thing. Uh talk about just if there's anything that you would think about differently through this process if you're at a mature company building a new product. I'm I'm helping a couple companies launch their second product.

他们实际在做的事情是，创始人会说：“好，我们再来一次，再把这件事做一遍。”创始人正用这种方式面向现有客户，因为他们打算向这些客户推销升级版产品。而且，他们甚至在新功能还没开发出来之前，就已经开始销售了。 现有公司还有一个例子，呃，我不能透露公司名称，但有一家公司的新产品负责人曾告诉我：“是啊，我们所有成功的点子都是从销售电话里来的。客户会说：‘好，你们确实能做 X，但能不能也为我们做另一件事？’那些客户在销售电话中提出、能帮他们完成那项工作的产品，后来都成功了；他们在白板上构思出来的那些，则一个都没成功。”And what they are doing is actually the founders are like, "Cool, we're doing it again. We're running it back." And the founders are taking this approach to existing customers because they're going to try to upsell them. And they are actually selling new features before they've built them. Another example at at uh existing companies is um I can't share the name but a company was a new product leader at a company was telling me hey yeah the way we get our ideas all of the ideas that have worked have come from sales calls where they said cool yeah you can do X but could you also do this other thing for us and the products that came out of the customer in the sales calls asking for something that could do that project for them uh all worked all the ones they whiteboarded never worked.

所以这里的想法是，你有一个产品，也在倾听反馈，基本上是在寻找那些小线索，看看这会不会成为一个机会。我设想的是，接下来你要一步步验证这个需求拉动假设：先提出假设，再和五位现有客户聊聊，寻找这种需求拉力，呃，看看他们是否真的会买，然后大致按照同样的流程继续下去。这里还有一个重要但我们可能还没有充分强调的细节：这件事应该由创始人来做，尤其是在初创公司里。So the idea here is you have a product, you're hearing, you're basically look finding these little nuggets of this could be a thing. And what I'm imagining is then you go through this whole pull hypothesis step by step. Just like put up that hypothesis, talk to five of your existing customers, look for that pull, uh see if they're going to actually buy it, and then kind of go through the same process. And an important wrinkle here that we haven't reinforced enough maybe is that it's the founders that should be doing this, especially in a startup.

不过，有意思的是，你提到即使在一家成熟的公司里，如果是新产品，理想情况下也应该由创始人来掌舵。But it's interesting you said even at a mature company if it's a new product the founders ideally are doing that sailing.

说话者：是的。理想情况下并非总是如此。确实有人在做从零到一的事情，但我只是建议，如果你处于那种情况，而且你不是创始人……Speaker: Yeah. Ideally not always the case. There there are people who who are doing zero to one stuff but I just recommend if you're in that situation and you're a non-founder

发言者：真正专注于尝试把东西卖出去，并在销售过程中学习，因为从零到一的过程中很容易迷失方向。Speaker: really focus on trying to sell the thing and learning through selling because there's a lot of ways to get lost in zero to one.

说话者：太棒了。再说一次，如果事情进展不顺，呃，有个想法就是进入“哥布林模式”：好吧，那就试试各种办法，尽可能多地和人交流，坐飞机到处跑，参加二十场会议，想办法找出点什么。Speaker: Awesome. And then again, if things aren't working, uh there's this idea you should of goblin mode of just like, okay, just try a bunch of stuff, talk to as many people, get on planes, go have 20 meetings, and just look for something.

说话人：是的，嗯，孤注一掷，哥布林模式。这些东西都只是你那种“紧急情况下打破玻璃”的招数。Speaker: Yes. Yeah. Hail Mary, goblin mode. Like all of these things are just the your break class in case of emergency.

时间真的非常宝贵。而且，停滞不前的感觉糟透了。如果你正处在从零到一的痛苦阶段，那简直是人生中最难熬的时期，你肯定不想让这种状态持续下去。所以，直接买张机票，去办公室，亲自去一趟，不管用什么办法，都要找到突破口。Time is really valuable. And like staying suck stuck is awful. If you're in this like pain cave of zero to one, it's like the worst time of your life and you just don't want to prolong that. So just get on a plane, go to the office, go in person, do whatever it takes to find something.

罗布，我们成功了。Rob, we did it.

快速问答与最后感想Lightning round and final thoughts

我们把所有内容都过了一遍。太精彩了。还有什么你觉得很重要、值得分享的，或者在进入非常令人期待的快问快答环节之前，你想再强调一下的吗？希望大家已经感受到，这件事其实有多简单。We went through everything. That was amazing. Is there anything else that you think is important to share or anything you want to I don't know, double down on before we get to our very exciting lightning round? Hopefully what's come across is kind of how simple this is.

拿出一个框架，展示给别人，看看他们会不会买单。我们很容易把这件事搞得过于复杂，也常常试图提前在脑子里把每个变量都想清楚。我发现，直接拿出框架去卖，看看他们是否愿意买，并且在这个过程中少想一点，就能让你达到目标。Pull a framework, show to people, see if they pull. There's a lot of ways to like over complicate this. And there's a lot of ways where we try to solve every variable in our head in advance. And I've found that just pull framework, sell, see if they try to buy uh and think less in that process uh it will get you there.

太棒了。听起来非常简单。我觉得重要的是要知道，实际上，找到一个真正可行的点子并不容易。所有这些都是为了帮你省去很多痛苦和折腾，也避免你产生幻觉——不，应该说是误以为那里有什么机会，结果把人生中很大一部分时间浪费在做一件根本行不通的事情上。Awesome. That sounds very simple. And I think it's important to know like this is very actually not like it's hard to find an idea that actually works. And this is all uh here to help you save a lot of pain and suffering and building and be kind of being uh disillusion not disillusioned mis uh feeling like there's something there wasting a lot of your life doing something that's not going to work.

说话者：是啊。你可以把它想成，嗯，你知道，就像海滩上的金属探测器。这只是给你一个金属探测器。你现在找的地方可能找不到金属，但至少我不是给你一把勺子。Speaker: Yeah. Think of it as like a um you know like a metal detector on a beach. Like this is just giving you a metal detector. You might not find metal where you're looking right now, but at least I'm not giving you a spoon.

说话者：至少我没给你一把勺子。意思是Speaker: At least I'm not giving you a spoon. Meaning

说话人：去海滩，对吧？比如去找金属。Speaker: for the beach, right? Like to look for metal.

说话人：你不是……哦，我明白了。你是用金属探测器，而不是拿勺子把所有沙子都翻一遍。哇，我喜欢这个比喻。Speaker: You're not Oh, I see. You have a metal detector versus looking through all the sand with a spoon. Wow. I love that metaphor.

呃，有时候你可能会发现某样东西，然后意识到它根本不值钱。是啊。Uh and then sometimes you may find a thing that and then you realize it's not worth anything. Yeah.

说话者：好吧。哇，这个比喻真棒。Speaker: Okay. Wow. That's a great metaphor.

主持人：好了，Rob，接下来我们进入非常精彩的快问快答环节。我有五个问题要问你。准备好了吗？开始吧。Speaker: Well, Rob, with that we reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions for you. Are you ready? Let's do it.

首先，你最常向别人推荐的两三本书是什么？First question, what are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

说话者：哦，天哪。嗯，我最喜欢的是克里斯托弗·亚历山大的《秩序的本质》四卷本系列。它是一本关于建筑的书，也是一套建筑类书籍。简直棒极了。Speaker: Oh gosh. The um my favorite one is the four volume nature of order series by Christopher Alexander. It's book on architecture, series of books on architecture. Best thing ever.

说话人：以前从没听过这个推荐。这些都是我最喜欢的。呃，最近有没有特别喜欢的电影或电视剧？我有两部最喜欢的电影，我们会反复看。Speaker: Never heard that recommendation before. Those are my favorite. Uh favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed? I have two favorite movies that we watch repeatedly.

一个是《傲慢与偏见》——最新拍的那版《傲慢与偏见》；另一个是《马达加斯加的企鹅》电影。我也不知道我们怎么会落在这个光谱的两端。One is the Pride the most recent Pride and Prejudice and the second is the Penguins of Madagascar movie. Don't know why we're in both ends of the spectrum there.

发言者：你最近发现、使用或喜欢的、最喜欢或觉得最有趣的 AI 产品是什么？Speaker: Favorite or most interesting AI product that you recently discovered or use or love?

发言者：我一直在用 Muse，我觉得既然它对我有效，那对任何人都有效。Speaker: I've been using Muse and it's like if it works for me, it can work for anyone.

说话人：是的。现在非常火。呃，太棒了。好吧，你在工作或生活中经常想起的最喜欢的人生格言是什么？Speaker: Yeah. Very hot right now. Uh amazing. Okay. favorite life motto that you often come back to in work or in life.

说话者：呃，生活是由你自己创造的。Speaker: Uh life is what you make of it.

发言人：确实如此。最后一个问题。我很想听听你对此的看法。现在有一种说法，叫“沼泽创意”。Speaker: So true. Final question. I'm curious to get your thoughts on this. So there's this idea of tarpit ideas.

嗯，我在播客里请过 Daltton Caldwell。他曾是 YC 的合伙人，他有个说法叫“tarpit ideas”，指的是人们总会冒出一些糟糕透顶、行不通的点子，却还一再提出、反复尝试，最后只能说：“好吧，这确实行不通。”有没有什么“tarpit ideas”是你发现大家总拿来问你，而你会直接说：“别这么做，肯定行不通”？哦，这个挺有意思的。这类点子就是：某个领域已经有了明显的赢家，却还是想闯进去，而且完全没有任何关于如何做出差异化的设想。Uh so I had Daltton Caldwell on the podcast. He was a partner at YC and he has this term tarpet ideas which are ideas that people constantly have that are just terrible and don't work and people keep having these ideas and they keep trying it and they're just like okay does not work. Is there are there any tarpet ideas you just find people keep coming to you and you're like don't do that it's not going to work. Oh that's interesting. the category is of ideas is to go after a space when there is already a clear winner in that space without any theory on being different.

我总是看到这种情况：哦，哇，Lemless 刚做了一个销售自动化工具，他们靠自筹资金起步，而且增长很快，那我也来做一个跟他们一模一样、或者非常接近的东西吧。你知道，这就像，好吧，但他们已经赢下这场竞争了，或者说他们已经做过这件事了。嗯，所以，除非你是这么想的：“哦，不过这类客户的需求还没得到满足，所以我们要为他们做点不太一样的东西。”否则，这些想法几乎总是行不通。而且你会觉得自己是不是疯了，因为你会想：“可这对他们来说明明行得通啊。”I just keep seeing that it's just like, oh wow, Lemless just built a sales automation tool and they're bootstrapped and they're growing really fast, so let me just build the exact same thing as them or something very close. And you know, it's like, okay, but they've already they've already won that or they've they've already they've already done that thing. Um, and so, uh, unless you're like, "Oh, but this kind of customer is unblocked, and so we're going to build something kind of different for them," those ideas almost always don't work. And you feel like you're going crazy because you're like, "Well, it worked for them.

我哪里做错了？"What am I doing wrong?"

说话人：我想大家都会回答：“但它更好。”而且我们都知道，它不能只是好一点点。基本上，你是在说：“好吧，这能帮他们扫清障碍。”Speaker: And I imagine everyone answers, "But it's better." And as we know, it can't just be a little bit better. And basically, you're saying like, "Okay, this is unblocking them."

发言者：是的。Speaker: Yes.

说话人：而且它比所有其他选择都好。他们肯定会选那个。不过我想，这就引出了另一个话题：如果它好两倍呢？我猜你对此的建议是，这可能还是不够好。Speaker: And it's better than all the alternatives. They're just going to go with that thing. But I guess then, you know, this goes into a whole other conversation like what if it's like two times better? And I guess your advice there is it's it's probably not good enough.

说话人：有很多这样的东西，对吧？你可以给我一台好 100 倍的家用打印机，但我不会买，因为我不……我并没有遇到什么阻碍。Speaker: There are many things, right? You could give me a 100x better printer for my house and I won't buy it because I don't I'm not blocked.

说话人：这真是个很好的例子。天哪，Rob，我们做到了。Speaker: That's a great example. Oh man, Rob, we did it.

说话者：我们成功了。我的天啊。Speaker: We did it. Holy cow.

发言者：我们做到了。天哪。嗯，好吧。听众怎样才能帮到你？Speaker: We did it. Holy cow. Um, okay. How can listeners be useful to you?

这就是我们最后一个问题。That's our final question.

说话人：哦，天哪。如果你喜欢这个框架，就用它吧。也告诉其他人。嗯，</final>Speaker: Oh gosh. If you like the framework, use it. tell other people about it. Um,

发言者：如果这本书对你有帮助，不妨看看；如果你有什么想法、建议，也欢迎联系我。这其实是一个仍在发展中的理论框架模型。我觉得自己才刚刚触及这个领域的皮毛，这大概就是我未来十年、二十年要做的事情。所以，如果你有改进它的方法，欢迎联系我告诉我。Speaker: check out the book if it's useful and uh, reach out if you have any thoughts, ideas or this is a kind of this is a theory framework model that is just in development. I still feel like I'm kind of scratching the surface on this is kind of like what I'm what I'm going to be doing for the next 10 20 years. So, if you have ways to improve it, like reach out and tell me.

说话人：太棒了。你的新闻通讯确切地说就是……你只是，我不知道你多久发布一次，但就像是，嘿，这里有另一种看待这件事的方式。这里还有个新情况。Speaker: Awesome. And your newsletter is an exact is exactly that is you just I don't know how often you're publishing, but just like cool here's like another way to think about this. Here's a wrinkle here.

说话者：是的。Speaker: Yeah.

说话人：呃，光是把它称为“创业公司的物理学”这个想法就很棒。Speaker: Uh just the idea of calling it physics of startups is an awesome idea.

发言人：谢谢。Speaker: Thanks.

发言人：所以请大家关注这份新闻简报。呃，Rob，非常感谢你今天到场。Speaker: So point people to the newsletter. Uh Rob, thank you so much for being here.

发言人：谢谢。Speaker: Thank you.

发言人：大家再见。Speaker: Bye everyone.

说话者：Speaker: