86 分钟付费 UGC 实操：Hector Serrano 如何在 Wispr Flow 搭建创作者增长体系

简要说明Brief Description

Hector Serrano 分享了 Wispr Flow 如何打造基于效果的付费用户生成内容（UGC）计划，涵盖创作者报酬、招募、社群、创意测试、营销岗位招聘以及创始人主导的内容。讨论还探讨了产品与市场的契合度、人的创意判断，以及 YouTube 内容包装。Hector Serrano shares how Wispr Flow built a performance-based paid-UGC program, covering creator compensation, recruitment, community, creative testing, marketing hiring, and founder-led content. The discussion also examines product-market fit, human creative judgment, and YouTube packaging.

目录Table of Contents

• 预告
  Teaser
• Hector 在 Wispr Flow 的工作内容
  What Hector does at Wispr Flow
• 增长的首要杠杆：产品与市场的契合度
  The number-one growth lever: product-market fit
• 何时开始投放付费广告
  When to start investing in paid ads
• 付费 UGC 策略及其发展历程
  The paid-UGC strategy and how it developed
• 创作者报酬机制：广告支出比例与 GMV 对比
  How creator compensation works: percent of ad spend vs. GMV
• 优秀现代营销人才的画像
  The profile of a great modern marketing hire
• 年轻人才的重要性
  The importance of young talent
• Hector 从 D1 足球之路到 Wispr Flow
  Hector’s journey from D1 soccer to Wispr Flow
• 分步指南：如何从零开始建立一个付费 UGC 社群
  Step-by-step: How to build a paid-UGC group from zero
• 联系创作者
  Reaching out to creators
• 在你的创作者群体中构建文化
  Building culture inside your creator group
• 媒介采买人员与创意负责人的协作角色
  The role of the media buyer alongside the creative lead
• 团队规模与结构
  Team size and structure
• 为什么用户生成内容（UGC）在技术类和企业级 SaaS 领域同样有效
  Why UGC works even in technical and enterprise SaaS
• 给踏上创作者之路的人一些建议
  Advice for people embarking on the creator path
• 应避免的常见错误
  Common mistakes to avoid
• 体育界的招聘方法
  The sports approach to hiring
• 为什么顶尖营销人员对 AI 输出避之不及
  Why the best marketers are allergic to AI output
• 由创始人主导的内容
  Founder-led content
• 为什么 YouTube 的包装比制作质量更重要
  Why YouTube packaging matters more than production quality
• 闪电问答与最后感想
  Lightning round and final thoughts

预告Teaser

过去几年里，你在发展 WhisperFlow 方面做得简直不可思议，成绩斐然。You have been doing this insanely incredible job growing WhisperFlow over the past couple years.

说话者：WhisperFlow 在19点。Speaker: WhisperFlow at 19.

发言者：我在 LinkedIn 上搜索创作者相关的工作，看到了大概 200 个职位。我发现了一家叫 WhisperFlow 的公司，就投了简历，和 Tanae 通了个电话，然后就加入了。我以前从没在初创公司工作过。我当时跟 Tanae 说：“我想要 Whisper 的股权。”Tanae 笑着说：“我喜欢你，哥们儿。”Speaker: I looked up creator jobs on LinkedIn. I saw like 200 positions. I found some company called WhisperFlow. I applied, had a call with Tanae, and then I joined. I've never worked in a startup. And I told Tanae like I was like, "I want equity in Whisper." And Tanae laughed and was like, "I like you, man."

说话人：大家都在谈论年轻人已经没有工作可做了。人工智能正在抢走所有人的工作。其实，年轻人更擅长做这类工作。Speaker: There's all this talk about no jobs left for young folks. AI is taking everyone's jobs. Young people are actually much better at this work.

发言者：一位30到40岁的创始人，并不了解一个18岁的年轻人——这个年轻人混迹于这些 Discord 群聊，每天刷 Instagram 和 TikTok。他们不明白什么方法真正有效，也不知道该如何最好地切入这些新渠道。我觉得，团队里有这样的人简直是再明智不过了。Speaker: A 30-40-year-old founder doesn't understand what an 18-year-old kid who's in these Discord chats, scrolling every day on Instagram and TikTok. They don't understand what's actually working and the best ways to approach these new channels. I think it's a no-brainer to have someone like that on your team.

说话人：你前几天还发过这样一条推文：“最优秀的营销人员对 AI 过敏。”如果Speaker: You actually had this tweet the other day, "The best marketers are allergic to AI." If

发言者：如果我们跑出去开始制作 AI 垃圾广告，大家大概不会太买账。现在的信息噪声太多了。如果你真正把更多精力放在质量上，而不是数量上，就很容易脱颖而出。Speaker: we go out and start making AI slop ads, it's probably not going to be received really well. There's so much noise. If you actually focus more on the quality and less on the quantity, it gets so easy to cut through the noise.

发言人：我们来聊聊付费 UGC。你当时请网红和创作者为 Whisper 制作一段推广内容。Speaker: Let's talk about paid UGC. You were getting influencers, creators to create a pitch basically for Whisper.

发言人：给他们充分的自由去尝试，想怎么做就怎么做。他们的收入没有上限。现在有些创作者一个月能赚到 13,000 美元。Speaker: Keep it really open for them to experiment, do whatever they see fit. They're not capped at their earnings. We have creators now that are making like $13,000 a month.

发言者：目前最难招到的，就是像你这样的人。Speaker: The hardest role to hire for right now is someone like you.

说话人：我觉得，如果你认为只要找成绩最好或毕业于最好的学校的人，就能招到最优秀的员工，那你很快就会发现自己大错特错。Speaker: I think if you just think that looking for someone with the best grades or the best school is going to get you the best hire, you are in for a rude awakening.

Hector 在 Wispr Flow 的工作内容What Hector does at Wispr Flow

主持人：赫克托，非常感谢你来到这里。欢迎收听本期播客。Speaker: Hector, thank you so much for being here. And welcome to the podcast.

发言人：谢谢。谢谢。很高兴能参加。Speaker: Thank you. Thank you. I'm excited to be on.

说话人：我很高兴你能来到这里，甚至比之前还要兴奋。我希望通过这次对话，打造一份非常实用的指南，介绍当下哪些方法有助于发展 B2B SaaS 产品。过去几年里，你在发展 WhisperFlow 方面做得极其出色。我看到一项数据，说 WhisperFlow 的营收在过去一年增长了 30 倍，这简直令人难以置信。你们最近还在竞争非常激烈的市场中，以约 20 亿美元的估值完成了融资。Speaker: I'm even more excited to have you here. What I want to try to do with this conversation is create a very tactical guide to what is working in growing a B2B SaaS product right now. You have been doing this insanely incredible job growing WhisperFlow over the past couple years. Uh I saw this stat that revenue at WhisperFlow grew 30x in the past year, which is absurd. Uh you guys recently raised at something like $2 billion in a very competitive market.

显然，你已经摸索出了一些门道。你开始分享自己在 X 上采用的一些策略，所以接下来我们会深入聊聊你发现有效的做法。首先，能不能大致介绍一下你在 WhisperFlow 负责什么？你在那里具体做什么工作？Clearly you figured something out. You've started to share some of the strategies that you've been deploying on X. And so we're going to be going deeper into the stuff that you've seen work. First of all, give us kind of a sense of what it is you you're responsible for at WhisperFlow. It's kind of your your job there and what do you work on?

发言者：首先，我想特别肯定一下团队其他成员的贡献。毕竟，我每天接触到的只是业务中非常小的一部分。嗯，主要是整个内容方面。我自己就是一名内容创作者，当初也是以这个身份加入 Whisper 的。后来这个岗位显然发生了很大变化，现在我算是负责我们付费 UGC 项目中实际的内容部分。Speaker: First of all, I just want to give a lot of credit to the other members of the team. Like what I touch at the end of the day is a very small part of the business. Um and that's mainly content as a whole. Um I'm a content creator myself and that's how I originally came into Whisper and that role obviously evolved a lot and now I'm kind of in charge of our paid UGC program on the actual content side.

我不负责媒体投放这块。另外，我还负责管理我们创始人的自然流量渠道，比如 YouTube 和 Instagram。I'm not on the media buying side of things. And then on top of that also managing our organic channels for our founder um like YouTube and Instagram.

说话人：好，太棒了。我注意到你有一点，我觉得如今真的很少见：你特别擅长在纷杂的信息中脱颖而出。无论是你创作的内容——比如你最近发的推文，在 Twitter 上火得一塌糊涂，我的动态里到处都有人转发。显然，你已经摸索出了自己的方法。还有你做的广告，以及 UGC 内容，也都非常有效。Speaker: Okay, awesome. Something that I've noticed about you and something that I think is really rare these days is you're you're very good at breaking through the noise. Both in the content you create, like your tweets recently have just gone crazy viral on Twitter. Everyone's sharing it all over my feeds. So clearly you figured out how to do that yourself. Also with the the ad work that you do, the UGC work that you do, also very effective.

所以，我们大家都能从你身上以及你总结出的经验中学到很多。So there's a lot that we can all learn from you and what you've figured out.

排名第一的增长杠杆：产品与市场契合度The number-one growth lever: product-market fit

说话人：我们先稍微拉远一点，聊聊你一直在投入时间的增长杠杆。最近，哪些方法在推动 WhisperFlow 增长方面效果不错，也适用于其他 B2B SaaS 产品？Speaker: So just kind of zooming out first, talk about the the growth levers that you have been spending time on. What has been working recently in growing WhisperFlow {slash} can work for other B2B SaaS products.

说话人：我觉得是第一个。这么说可能有点老套，但我认为最重要的是，Whisper之所以能以这样的速度成长，是因为它的产品。从一开始，我做的就一直是产品驱动增长。我加入时，产品还处于早期阶段。我记得那时候我们有几千名用户，然后我也不知道怎么回事，产品就开始逐渐火起来了。大概六个月后，我记得 Tanay 说：“哇，我们真的找到 PMS 了。”就像是他发现了——我们挖到了金子。Speaker: I think the first one and it's maybe a bit corny to say, but I think most importantly Whisper has grown at the rate it has because of the product. It's everything I've been product led growth since the beginning. I joined at the pre-product stage and I remember we had a few thousand users early on and just I don't know where it just started catching steam and like 6 months in I remember Tanay said he was like, "Wow, we really found PMS." Like he found like we struck gold.

然后在此基础上不断增加其他渠道，无论是自然流量、付费渠道还是其他各种渠道，都只会进一步助推增长。我们通过反复试错、尝试各种不同的方法，取得了很大成功——我测试了很多渠道，其他人也测试了很多渠道。Um and then from there just adding on all these other channels, whether it be organic, paid, everything is just adding more fuel to the fire. And what we found a lot of success with um through trial and and error doing a bunch of different things, me testing a bunch of channels, other people testing a bunch of channels.

我们现在确定的一个主要方向是付费投放，我们会配合大量 UGC 内容来推进这项工作。付费投放涵盖很多内容支柱，比如 UGC 视频、静态素材、网红合作、内部制作的视频，以及创始人故事。不过，整体来说，付费广告无论是通过 Meta、LinkedIn、YouTube 等平台投放，都已经成为 Whisper 的主要支柱之一，也是我在内容方面负责主导的工作之一。Like one of the main ones we've landed on now is paid and we're funneling that with a lot of UGC content and we have a lot of pillars inside of paid, whether that be UGC video, statics, influencers, in-house videos, founder storytelling. But yeah, paid ads as a whole, whether it be through meta, LinkedIn, YouTube, etc. has definitely become one of our main pillars at Whisper and it's one of the things I'm leading on the content side of things.

何时开始投入付费广告When to start investing in paid ads

说话人：太棒了。好，那我们就深入聊聊，不过首先，我觉得你说得很对，有一点非常重要：如果你的产品本身不够出色，或者还没有真正实现自然的产品市场契合度，那么这些做法都不会真正奏效。我想，如果产品不够好，这些做法可能短期内有效，但很快就会失去效果。所以，我想问，这是不是第一课：在开始投入付费推广之前，产品就必须先靠自身运转良好？Speaker: Awesome. Okay, so let's let's dive in there, but first and I think to your point, it's really important to say uh none of this will really work if your product isn't exactly great, if there's not real organic product market fit already. Uh I imagine this can work for a little bit and then it just fades away if the product isn't great. So, I guess is that just like step lesson one, this needs to be working on its own with before you start investing in paid?

说话人：对，没错。有时候会有很多创始人联系我，或者来办公室找我，或者是朋友，他们会问：“秘诀是什么？Whisper 怎么增长得这么快？”我不是不尊重其他产品，但如果你们一开始就没有这样的增长势头，而且还得过于用力地推动增长，那也许就得回到起点，好好想想你们究竟是怎么定位这款产品的。Speaker: Yeah, exactly. I have like a lot of founders sometimes reach out or or come by the office or or friends and they're like, "What's the hack? Like how did Whisper grow so fast?" And it's like no disrespect to other products, but it's like if you're not having that growth early on and you having to force it a little bit too much and maybe you have to like go back to the drawing board a little bit and like rethink how you're actually positioning the product.

它对你的用户真的有价值吗？那它为什么没有自发地自然增长呢？而且，嗯，确实没有什么捷径，除了做好产品，然后再增加更多、更多可以撬动增长的手段。Is it actually valuable to your users? It why isn't it growing by itself organically? And like yeah, there's really no hack besides having a good product and then adding more more levers to pull from.

发言者：那么我想问一下，你觉得什么时候开始投资这些自然流量渠道比较合适？Speaker: So, let me ask, when do you think it makes sense to start investing in these in organic channels?

说话者：嗯，我觉得付费渠道其实是早期最值得投入的渠道之一。这是我从 Matt 那里学到的，他曾经是我们在 Whisper 的增长负责人。嗯，他现在在 Victor。我的很多经验，以及从他那里学到的经验，都是把这种电商思路用到 SaaS 上。很多公司都害怕启动付费推广，而真正启动之后，你会学得快得多：比如，你的 messaging 是否真的能引起受众共鸣？你是否真的能把这些冷流量转化为用户？Speaker: Well, I think paid is actually one of the best channels to invest on early on and I learned this from Matt, who's actually our ex-head of growth at Whisper. Um he's now at Victor and a lot of his lessons and lessons that I've learned from him is like taking this e-com approach um to SaaS, which a lot of companies like scared to turn on the the paid engine and what happens when you actually turn on the paid engine is you actually learn a lot faster, like if the messaging actually resonates with your audience, are you actually able to convert this cold traffic into users?

归根结底，大多数公司并不擅长创作自然流量内容，因为这对他们来说是个相当新的领域。除非团队里有非常年轻、真正很了解这些自然流量渠道的人，知道怎么包装内容、怎么创作内容，否则就很难获得明确的数据，判断你的产品是否真的有市场潜力、用户是否真的认同它，以及你是否真的能追踪到这些转化，等等。And like at the end of the day, most companies aren't that skilled in organic content because it is something very like new um and unless you have like really young people on your team who really understand these organic channels really well, know how to package it, know how to make the content, it's really hard to actually get any clear numbers on does your product actually have legs, do people actually resonate with it, are you actually able to track these conversions, etc.

所以，我觉得从一开始就做付费推广是合理的。当然，也要在自己的能力范围和预算内进行测试。不过，如果你能看到自己可以把冷流量转化为付费用户，那就算是一个明确的信号，说明只要再稍微优化一下，同样的 messaging 或产品在自然流量渠道上也会奏效。So, I think paid makes sense from the get-go. Obviously like testing within your your limits and your budgets that you have. But yeah, if you're able to like see I'm able to turn this cold traffic into paying users, then you kind of have like a clear signal there that this same messaging or this product will also work on organic if you like optimize things a bit more.

发言者：我想回到那个话题，聊聊早期团队可能是什么样子，甚至是在产品市场契合之前。不过，你在这里分享的内容确实很有意思：付费广告已经存在很久了，大家一直在 Instagram、Facebook、TikTok 等平台投放广告。这些平台本身并不新鲜。但你想表达的是，付费广告领域仍有很大的超额收益空间和发展机会，可以实现大幅增长，也可以做出不同的尝试。Speaker: I want to come back to that just like what that early team may look like even maybe pre-product market fit. But what's really interesting about what you're sharing here is people, you know, paid has been around for a long time running ads on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, all these things. Like there's nothing new as a platform. And what you're saying here is there's still a lot of alpha and opportunity to grow substantially and do something different in paid.

说话人：对，百分之百。而且很多时候，人们也会害怕，因为他们会说：“哦，我还不想开启付费引擎，也不想花一大笔钱，因为这样一来，我们可能会达到某个阶段，把这个市场或这个 ICP 过度渗透。”但归根结底，就是要更聪明地思考如何定位产品，而且总会有新的方法、新的 messaging、新的 ICP 可以瞄准。如果你足够灵活，懂得从不同角度来构思内容，或者把握付费投放的方式，我想你其实不会真的触及饱和。Speaker: Yeah, 100%. And like a lot of times people also get scared because they'll say like, "Oh, I don't want to turn on the paid engine yet or spend a bunch of money because then we're going to like we're going to reach a point where we like oversaturate this market or this ICP. But at the end of the day it's just like getting smarter with how you're again positioning the product and there's always new ways um or like new messaging, new ICPs you can target and you won't really reach saturation if you're like savvy enough with the angles that you're kind of approaching your content with or the paid that you're or how you're approaching that paid mechanism, I guess.

说话人：本期节目由本季冠名赞助商 WorkOS 呈现。OpenAI、Anthropic、Cursor、Replit、Sierra、Clay 以及数百家其他成功企业有什么共同点？它们都由 WorkOS 提供支持。如果你正在为企业开发产品，就一定体会过集成单点登录、SCIM、RBAC 和审计日志有多令人头疼。WorkOS 将这些阻碍交易的问题变成开箱即用的 API，专为 B2B SaaS 打造。如今，又有一种新型用户需要访问你的应用：智能体。Speaker: This episode is brought to you by this season's presenting sponsor WorkOS. What do OpenAI, Anthropic, Cursor, Replit, Sierra, Clay, and hundreds of other winning companies have in common? They're all powered by WorkOS. If you're building for enterprises, you have felt the pain of integrating single sign-on, SCIM, RBAC, and audit logs. WorkOS turns those deal blockers into drop-in APIs built for B2B SaaS. And now there's a new kind of user that needs access to your app, agents.

AI 代理需要像人一样注册、验证身份并获取权限。WorkOS 全都能搞定。Agent Auth 为代理提供权限范围明确且可撤销的身份，Auth MD 支持代理注册，而 Airlock 则负责判断代理的每项操作，并予以允许、拒绝或升级给人工处理。我注意到，我投资的每一家向高端市场扩张的初创公司，最终都会使用 WorkOS，因为他们是最好的。AI agents need to register, authenticate, and get permissions just like a person. WorkOS handles it all. Agent Auth to give agents scoped revocable identities, agent registration with Auth MD, and Airlock to judge every agent action and allow, deny, or escalate to a human. I've noticed that every startup that I'm an investor in that expands up market ends up using WorkOS because they're the best.

访问 workos.com，让你的应用今天就具备企业级能力。Go to workos.com to make your app enterprise ready today.

付费用户生成内容（UGC）策略及其发展过程The paid-UGC strategy and how it developed

好。那么，我们来深入聊聊这个。我们来谈谈付费 UGC，以及广义上的付费内容。大概是……Okay. So, let's actually let's dive into this. So, let's talk about paid UGC and paid in general. What's kind of the

发言人：你采用的、并且效果很好的整体策略是什么？Speaker: the overall strategy that you have employed that has worked so well?

发言者：我觉得，也许从我们之前学到的东西开始会挺好的。嗯，那我们回到什么时候说起呢？我想大概是 2025 年初，当时我们有一位名叫 Tobin 的实习生。呃，他现在是我的好朋友了。不知道你有没有听说过他。他之前也在网上火过一阵子。嗯，后来他加入了 Polymarket。总之，Tobin 当时是我们早期招来的营销实习生。Speaker: I think it would be kind of good to start maybe from what we learned previously, actually. Um so, where do we go back to? I think this was like early 2025, we had an intern named Tobin. Uh he's a good friend now. I don't know if you've heard of him. He also went pretty viral a while back. Um he ended up joining Polymarket. But basically, Tobin came on as an early intern marketing hire.

他其实没什么经验，嗯，除了做过一些基础的 UGC。我记得他当时在学金融，想当律师。后来他加入了，我就给了他一笔预算，跟他说：“随便试试，看看什么行得通。”他做了几个项目，但都没什么效果。后来他在自然流量 UGC 方面取得了很好的成绩。那时候也正好是 Clue 的时期，当时能把这件事做成功的人还不多。Didn't really have any experience um besides some like basic UGC. I think he was studying finance and wanted to be a lawyer. And he came in and tonight just gave him like a budget and was like just throw stuff at the wall, see what sticks. Did a few projects, nothing really worked. And then he found really good success with organic UGC. And this was also around like the Clue era when like there wasn't that many people doing it successfully.

发言者：解释一下自然产生的用户生成内容（UGC）。这到底是什么？Speaker: Explain organic UGC. What is that exactly?

发言者：没错，有机 UGC 基本上就是把一群创作者聚在一起。这些创作者会围绕你的产品制作视频，然后发布到他们自己的 Instagram 或 TikTok 页面上。比如说，你加入 Whisper 的有机 UGC 群组，并创建一个名为 Lenny Whispers 的账号。之后，你只要把视频上传到这个账号，就能根据 CPM 指标获得报酬。Speaker: Yeah, so organic UGC is you basically get a bunch of creators in a group. These creators will make videos about your product and then they will post that on their own Instagram pages or own TikTok pages. So, imagine you join Whisper's organic UGC group and you make an account called Lenny Whispers. And then you just upload your videos into there and then you get paid based off of a CPM metric.

所以，可能大概是每千次观看 2 美元吧。然后随着数量越来越高，单价就会逐渐下降。对，是 Tobin 帮我们搭建的。我觉得大概两个月半就有了 5 亿次观看。CPM 非常低，效果还算不错，不过我觉得那时候也正处于自然流量 UGC 阶段的早期，大家都特别关注虚荣指标。So, maybe it's like, I don't know, $2 per thousand views. And then it tapers off like as you get higher and higher. And yeah, Tobin set that up for us. Um and I think in like 2 and 1/2 months was like 500 million views. Super low CPMs and it it worked decently well, but I think it was also early on in the organic UGC phase where everyone was really focused on vanity metrics.

而且这些并不一定能带来很多转化，因为显然，WhisperFlow 这类产品也比较难让学生掏钱购买。And they didn't necessarily lead to a lot of conversions because obviously the type of product that WhisperFlow is as well, it's a bit harder to get to students to get students to pay for it.

所以最终我们还是终止了这个项目，但我并不是完全反对自然流量的 UGC。我们只是想确保自己不会又去追逐那些虚荣指标。后来 Tobin 在 Polymarket 把这件事做得好得多。他好像摸索出了自然流量 UGC 的门道，而且不只是做那些非常偏漏斗顶端的概念。不过，没错，自然流量的 UGC 确实有效。只是在 Whisper，我们没有看到那么大的成功，也没有取得我们想要的成果。So, ultimately we ended up killing the program, which I'm not entirely against organic UGC. It's just making sure that you're not again chasing the vanity metrics. And then Tobin did this a lot better at Polymarket. He like cracked the code with um organic UGC and like not just doing very top of funnel um concepts. But yeah, organic UGC does work. We just didn't see that much success or the success we wanted at Whisper.

而且托宾离开后，要找到人接替他的工作也会非常困难。所以我们就想，干脆把这事停了吧。再说，当时付费投放对我们来说效果还不错。这也就把我们带到了现在的情况——我是说，不是现在，而是大约7个月前，我意识到付费投放效果非常好。而所有付费投放素材都是我做的。And it was also going to be really hard to find someone uh to take Tobin's role after he left. So, we're like, let's just kill this. And then again, paid was working relatively well for us. So, that kind of brings us to where we're at now, where I mean, not now, but like 7 months ago I realized that paid was working really well. And I was the one making all the paid assets.

所以我当时就在想，要不我们把 Tobin 在自然流量 UGC 上的那套打法——比如建立社群、组建创作者阵容、按效果付费——直接用到付费广告上。然后我们可以让广告稍微更偏中层漏斗一点，多推销产品一点。嗯，我是说，也不只是中层漏斗，因为付费广告里各种类型都需要，但整体上就是直接推销产品，而不是只做那种屏幕上叠文字的广告。So, I was like, what if we apply Tobin's playbook from organic UGC of like building this community, building this roster, and paying off performance, and we just apply it to paid, and we maybe make the ads a bit more middle of funnel, maybe a bit more pitching the product. Um I mean, not even just middle of funnel because you need everything in paid ads, but more just like pitching the product straight on instead of just like um screen on text ads.

然后我偶然发现了 Tribe，不过我不知道你想不想让我……你想让我现在讲讲这个吗？And then I stumbled upon Tribe, which I don't know if you want me Do you want me to get into that now?

说话人：是啊，聊聊 Tribe。拼写是 T R Y B E，对吧？Speaker: Yeah, talk about Tribe. And it's T R Y B E, right?

说话人：是 T R Y B E。Lucas Pacther，她是创办 Tribe 的那个人。不过在此之前，他实际上创办了 Squid Haus，这是一个服装品牌，并通过 TikTok Shop 让它迅速发展起来。但在 Meta 上并没有真正能做同样事情的方式。于是，他开发了一个内部工具，让他们可以投放创作者广告，并根据效果向创作者付费。后来，他基本上把这个工具开放给了所有人。Speaker: Yes, T R Y B E. So, Lucas Pacther, she's this guy who started Tribe, but before that he actually started Squid Haus, um which is a clothing brand, and he grew it really fast through TikTok Shop. But there wasn't really a way to do the same thing on Meta. So, he made this internal tool where they could run creators ads and pay them based off performance. And then he basically made it available for everyone.

而我们是最早入驻的公司之一。我看到它的时候就觉得，这简直是板上钉钉的事。它就像 TikTok Shop 的模式，只不过是用在 Meta 广告上。由于 SaaS 公司没法使用 TikTok Shop，这就等于为它们解锁了一个新的渠道，让 SaaS 公司也能投放效果导向型广告。于是我们就入驻了，搭建起自己的项目。快进到现在，我们每个月都会推出大约 500 到 600 条广告。And we were one of the first companies to hop on. And when I saw it, I was like, this is a no-brainer. It's like the TikTok Shop method, but for Meta ads. And since SaaS companies aren't able to use TikTok Shop, it's like now they've unlocked this sort of this new channel for SaaS companies to be able to run performance-based ads. And yeah, we hopped on there, built out our program, and I mean, if you fast forward to now, we're now launching like 500 to 600 ads every single month.

这是一个很棒的过程。显然，这么说省略了很多内容，直接跳到了我们现在的情况，不过我只是想大致介绍一下我们尝试过什么、哪些奏效了、哪些没有奏效，以及我们最终是如何采用现在这种按效果付费的 UGC 模式的。And it's been a great process. Obviously, that's kind of skipping a lot to where we're at now, but just wanted to kind of give an idea of what we tried, how it worked, but also didn't work, and then how we ended up on the performance-based model that we have now for paid UGC.

发言者：好，太棒了。我们接下来会深入探讨，不过先确认一下大家都明白我们在说什么。谈到自然流量 UGC，它并不是免费的。基本上，你是请网红、创作者为 Whisper 制作推广内容。你拿他们的视频发布到自己的频道上，然后按观看量付费。Speaker: Okay, amazing. We're going to go much deeper, but just to make sure everyone understands what we're talking about here. So, when you talk about organic UGC, it's not free. It's basically you're getting influencers, creators to create a pitch basically for Whisper. You take their video, you put it on your channel, and you pay them per views.

发言人：不，所以他们会把它发布在自己的频道上。Speaker: No, so so they post it on their channels.

发言人：他们会把它发布到自己的频道上。Speaker: They post it on their channels.

说话人：对，对。所以这是基于 CPM 的。比如说，我们再次把你拉进这个群，然后你在 TikTok 和 Instagram 上创建自己的频道，可以叫 Lenny Whispers 或 Lenny Talks。其实叫什么都行，但你不会把内容发到自己的主 Instagram 账号上，而是发到另一个账号上。嗯，然后我们会按 CPM 的方式付给你。Speaker: Yeah, yeah. So, it's a CPM-based. So, let's say, again, we bring you into the group, and then it you make your own channels on TikTok and Instagram, and it'll be like Lenny Whispers or Lenny Talks. It can be anything really, but it you won't then post it on your main Instagram. You'd post it on an alternate. Um and then we would pay you a CPM-based.

发言人：好，这里的主要区别是，它不是基于 CPM（基本上就是基于观看量），而是按花费的一定比例收取，或者，呃……Speaker: Okay, so the big difference here is instead of CPM-based, which is basically views-based, it's they take a percentage of spend or uh

发言者：是的，根据你做的是 SaaS 还是电商之类的，按支出或 GMB 的百分比计算。Speaker: Yeah, a percentage of spend or GMB, depending on if you're in SaaS or if you're a e-com, something like that.

说话人：太棒了。好，很不错。Speaker: Awesome. Okay, cool.

发言者：是的。Speaker: Yeah.

发言者：所以，你们已经转向这种模式了。基本上就是基于效果的，呃，UGC。为了把这种模式的运作方式说清楚，你们现在大概有50位创作者，对吧？Speaker: So, you've shifted to this model. It's basically performance-based uh UGC. So, just to be very clear about what this how this works. You find I think you have something maybe like 50 creators right now.

发言者：是的，我们现在有 50 个。Speaker: Yeah, right now we have 50.

说话人：好的，我们来聊聊你建议的推进步骤，也就是先从几个创作者开始。那么，你会去寻找创作者，Speaker: Okay, and we'll talk about the progression that you recommend starting with a couple. So, you find creators,

创作者报酬如何计算：广告支出百分比与 GMV 对比How creator compensation works: percent of ad spend vs. GMV

他们制作一段视频，介绍 WhisperFlow 有多棒。你可以把这段视频作为广告投放到 Meta、TikTok 等平台，然后根据广告的表现给他们分成。they make a video talking about how awesome WhisperFlow is. You use that video as an ad on Meta and TikTok and other platforms, and then they get a cut of how that ad performs.

发言人：没错。Speaker: Exactly.

发言者：对于他们采用的剪辑方式，大致有两种做法。谈谈这个吧。Speaker: And then you have two kind of approaches to the cut they take. Talk about that.

发言人：是的，显然，我们不想只按比例给创作者付费，尤其是在刚开始的时候。因为如果你加入这个团队，做了 30 条视频，结果佣金只赚了 100 美元，那确实挺打击人的。很多时候，我们发现最优秀的创作者之所以能成为最优秀的创作者，是因为他们坚持得最久，也理解了这个模式是如何运作的。所以，我们实际上还加入了一项叫作智能保底费用的安排。Speaker: Yeah, so obviously, we don't want to just pay creators just off percentage-based, especially early on, because if you're coming to the group, you make 30 videos, and you only make 100 bucks off of commission, then it is pretty demoralizing. And a lot of times we see with our best creators, they're our best creators because they stuck around for the longest and they've understood how the model works. So, one thing we actually have included is is a is is it's called a smart retainer.

这基本上就像我们在说：“好，我们会支持你作为一名创作者。比如说，我们合作制作 25 条视频，只要你达到这个视频数量的指标，我们就付给你 1,500 美元。”不过，嗯，具体要看他们能赚多少佣金，我们可能会给他们补足差额，也可能根本不加这笔智能保底费用。And what this is is basically like us saying, "Okay, we're going to back you as a creator. And let's say we're going to we're going to do 25 videos and we're going to pay you $1,500 as long as you hit that quota of videos, we'll pay you that money." But, um depending on how much they earn in commissions, then we might top them up or we might not even add that smart retainer in.

那么，为了说明得更清楚一点，假设你加入了我们的计划，完成了 25 条视频，但只赚了 500 美元的佣金，那么因为你达到了这个指标，我们会额外支付你 1,000 美元。不过，如果你也完成了这个指标，而且赚了 3,000 美元的佣金，那么你就只拿佣金，我们不会再加任何固定报酬。也就是说，我们是在说：“只要你完成这些视频并达到这些指标，我们就会支付你 X 金额。”这样一来，那些在第一个月、第二个月或第三个月加入团队的创作者，即使单靠佣金可能还赚不到那么多，也能赚到一定的收入，从而保持投入并持续成长。So, just to make it a bit more clear, let's say that you're in our program and you hit the 25 videos and you only make $500 in commissions, then we will pay you an additional $1,000 because you hit that quota. But, let's say that you also hit that quota and you make $3,000 in commission, then you strictly keep commissions and we don't add any smart retainer. So, it's kind of us saying, "As long as you hit these videos and you hit these metrics, we will pay you X amount." And it makes it so that creators that join in the group month one, month two, month three, maybe they're not able to reach over that amount in strictly commissions, but they're able to make some sort of amount of money so that they actually stay dedicated and keep growing.

再过三四个月，你会看到这些创作者开始崭露头角，转向纯佣金模式。对我这个项目负责人，或者品牌方来说，这简直是最好的情况，因为你付给他们的钱完全是从利润里出的，或者说，只需为表现最好的视频付费，而不用自己掏腰包。And then three or four months down the line, you see these creators start to break out and make purely commission space, which for me as the guy running the program or if you're a brand owner, that's like the best thing because you're paying them pure profit or or pure off the best performing videos instead of paying out of pocket.

另外，我觉得一个很好的背景是，我自己也是创作者，所以我发现很多公司都这么做，甚至我们在 Wish 有时也会这样做。我们会给这些创作者一份 brief，让他们为我们制作广告，还会给他们一整张说明表，上面写着：“别说这个，要说这个。用这些吸引人的开场。这就是我们希望你们介绍产品的方式。”Also, I think some good background is I'm a creator myself, so I found that a lot of companies and even at Wish so we were doing this sometimes as well. It's like we would give briefs to these creators to make ads for us and we would give them this whole sheet where it's like, "Don't say this, say this. Use these hooks. This is how we want you to talk about the product.

“你需要这样拍摄这个产品。”这就像是你给创作者发一份长达 10 页的指南，告诉他们该怎么拍摄内容、该谈些什么，结果反而抹杀了创作者本身的创作空间。嗯，没有什么比这更打击积极性的了。作为一名创作者，我知道，如果有个品牌信任我，知道为什么找我合作，并且给我空间，让我按照自己认为最适合这个产品的方式创作内容，那么我产出的内容肯定会比被框在条条框框里时更好。This is how you need to film the product." And it's like when you send the creator a 10-page guideline on how they need to shoot their content, what they need to talk about, you end up removing the creative aspect that creators have. Um and there's nothing more demotivating than that. And I know as a creator, like if I have a brand that trusts in me, brings me in for a reason, and just opens the doors for me to create content how I see best fit for the product, you're going to get better content out of me than if you just put me in this box.

所以，这也是很多创作者想加入我们团队的主要原因之一。而且我们也努力让团队保持紧密团结，让大家有很强的归属感。我们汇聚最优秀的人才，同时也为他们提供充分的自由去尝试，做他们认为合适的事。他们都是产品的粉丝，而且他们的收入也没有上限。So, that's one of the main reasons that a lot of the creators want to work in our group. And we also keep it really tight-knit. So, it's like this tight-knit feeling. We bring the best of the best, and then on top of that, we keep it really open for them to experiment, do whatever they see fit. They're all fans of the product. And then on top of that, they're not capped at their earnings.

我们不是每条视频付他们100美元，也不是每条付50美元。一个月也不是只有1000美元。我们的报酬实际上真的没有上限。如果他们的视频做得特别好，也投入了很多精力，我们现在有创作者每个月能赚到大约13000美元。这在其他形式的UGC，甚至网红营销中，基本是不可能的。他们赚得比全职网红还多，而他们自己的 Instagram 账号上可能只有1000、2000个粉丝。We're not paying them $100 for a video. We're not paying them $50 a video. It's not $1,000 for the month. It's like it's truly uncapped. If they have really good videos and they put a lot of effort in, we have creators now that are making like $13,000 a month. And that's not really possible with other forms of UGC or even influencers. They're making more money than than full-time influencers. And they might have like 1,000, 2,000 followers on on their own Instagram accounts.

但这不过是让任何有才华的创作者都能赚到真金白银的一种方式。But this has just been a way for any creator who's talented to be able to make real like money.

说话人：太棒了。具体做法是，如果这是购物类产品，就按 GMV（商品交易总额）的一定比例给他们分成；如果这是 B2B SaaS 产品，就按广告支出的一定比例给他们分成。Speaker: Awesome. And the way you do it is if it's a shopping sort of product, you give them a percentage of GMV. And then if it's the B2B SaaS product, you give them a percentage of ad spend.

说话者：尤其是，如果你们有一款免费增值产品，直接转化很难追踪，因为我们也不想陷入一种不确定的境地：也许用户是通过广告转化的，也许不是；也许他们购买了产品，而我们投放这些广告并从中获利，但他们拿到的报酬却没有达到应有的水平。对于 Whisper 这样的产品，归因很难追踪，或者可能需要一两周才能确认，所以最好还是按广告支出的百分比来结算。Speaker: Especially especially if you have like a freemium product where it's hard to track direct conversion because we also don't want to get in a place where I don't know, maybe people are converting off their ads or maybe they're not, maybe they're purchasing, and then we're running those ads and profiting off those ads and they're not getting like like they're not they're not getting paid what they're worth. And with a product like Whisper where it's kind of hard to track those attributions or it might take a week or two, it's best if we just keep it at a percent of ad spend.

但显然，如果你卖的是水瓶或T恤之类的东西，而且很容易追踪某个人是看了这个广告还是那个广告来的，以及他们有没有购买，那么按 GMV 的一定比例来算就更合理了。But obviously if you're like selling, I don't know, a water bottle or a t-shirt and it's like really easy to track whether a person came from this ad or that ad and if they purchase or not, um then it makes more sense to do a percent of GMV.

发言人：所以，这里非常成功的一项创新，就是让创作者也能从广告的成功中分得一杯羹。Speaker: So, the innovation here that has worked really well is giving the creator a kind of a piece of the action of the success of their ad.

说话人：没错。Speaker: Exactly.

说话人：太棒了。然后还要限制下行风险，这样他们才能真正花时间做这件事，而不必担心自己会无法谋生。Speaker: Awesome. And then also capping the downside so that they can actually spend time doing this versus being worried that they they're not going to make a living.

说话者：对，完全是这样。因为很多时候，这些创作者不得不一直和品牌谈合作，或者和新公司合作、学习新东西。这些创作者不仅都是资深用户，而且每个月都能和同一家公司合作。所以想想看，随着时间推移，视频质量会不断提升，产生多大的累积效应。这样就不用等到“哦，你们这个品牌要推出一项新功能了”，然后你就得说：“好吧，我们赶紧找些新创作者吧。”如果你已经有一批内部创作者，他们了解你的产品，也已经信任你，那就不一样了。我的一些创作者对产品的了解甚至几乎超过我，他们还能提出我根本想不到的点子。Speaker: Yeah, exactly. Cuz a lot of the times these creators have to they end up having to constantly be negotiating with brands or working with new companies, learning new things. And it's like not only are these creators all power users, but they get to work with the same company every single month. So, just think about like the compounding effect of how much better the videos get over time instead of "Oh, you're this brand who's running a new maybe launching a new feature." And you're like, "Okay, let's scramble to find new creators." And it's like, if you already had that internal group of creators who already know your product and already believe in you, and like some of my creators understand the product better than me almost, and they come up with ideas I never could have come up with.

嗯，所以如果你已经有这样一个内部群组，那就很方便。我们推出新东西时，不管是 Whisper 记事工具，还是我们发布的各种新功能，我都可以直接发到 Discord 里，说：“嘿，大家来做个关于这个的视频吧。”Um so, if you just have that internal group already, it's so easy that when we launch a new thing, whether it was like the Whisper note taker or all these different features that that we release, it's so easy for me to just drop it in the Discord and be like, "Hey guys, let's make a video on this."

这样就不用到处寻找各种创作者、向他们介绍需求，结果到了下个月他们又不见了，过两个月还得再去找他们。嗯，所以，是的，这确实能让品牌方和创作者双方都获得很棒的体验。Instead of having to go chase around and find all these different creators and brief them, and then the next month they're gone, and then 2 months down the line you have to go find them again. Um so, yeah, it it just makes for a great experience both on the brand side and the creator side.

发言者：这又回到了产品本身必须足够出色这一点，因为如果产品不够出色，就很难找到真正喜欢它的创作者。Speaker: And this again comes back to the product itself has to be awesome because it'll be very hard to find creators that love your product if the product isn't awesome.

说话人：是啊，而且作为创作者也很容易精疲力竭。比如，如果你在谈论自己并不认同的东西，很快就会觉得无聊。Speaker: Yeah, and it it and it's just easy to burn out as well as a creator. Like, if you're talking about something you don't believe in, it can get boring really quick.

发言人：是的，这几乎是在测试产品与市场的契合度。你能找到对……感到兴奋的创作者吗？Speaker: Yeah, it's almost a test of product market fit. Can you find creators that are excited about

发言人：对，而且客户流失率低。Speaker: Yeah, and low churn.

说话者：是的。Speaker: Yeah.

说话人：说实话，那其实是因为——我想也该补充一点背景。我当时其实在 Whisper 工作，有一年半的时间，所有广告都是我一个人做的。所以，我做了成百上百、成百上百、成百上百、成百上百条广告。嗯，这大概也证明了我有多喜欢 Whisper。我没有疯。呃，嗯，对。Speaker: That was that was honestly cuz I guess some context as well. I was actually at Whisper, I was the one making every single ad for like a year and a half. So, I made hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of ads. Um which I guess that's a testament to how much I I loved Whisper. I didn't go crazy. Uh and and yeah.

发言人：你认为，对于负责这项工作的人来说，在请创作者制作广告之前，自己曾经制作过广告，这一点真的非常重要吗？Speaker: Do you think that is actually really important for the person that takes this work to have been the person creating the ads before asking creators to create the ads?

说话者：是的，我觉得这很重要。因为这又回到了我之前提到的一点：很多从未做过内容工作、也从未和创作者合作过的人，最后却成了给他们做简报、告诉他们该怎么做的人。你不会让一个不是工程师的人去指挥工程团队。比如，我绝不会跑去跟工程团队说：“嘿，你们得这样解决这个问题，还要做这个、做那个。”他们肯定会想：“这家伙在跟我说什么？”Speaker: Yes. I thought it was important. cuz it goes back kind of to to a point I mentioned earlier where a lot of people who've never worked in content or or who have never worked with the creators end up being the ones briefing them and telling them what to do. And it's like you would never have someone who's not an engineer telling the engineering Like, I would never go up to the engineering team and be like, "Hey, you guys need to solve this problem like this and do this and this and this." And they're going to be like, "What is this guy telling me?"

优秀现代营销人才的画像The profile of a great modern marketing hire

发言者：好的，那我们就顺着这个话题岔开聊聊：如果你要在公司里找一个像 Hector 这样的人来领导这项工作，这样的人选需要具备什么样的背景？Speaker: Okay, so let's go down this tangent of to find someone like Hector, what what are what does a profile look like if you were to find a Hector to lead this work at your company?

说话人：因为这是我和很多朋友进行的最有趣的对话之一，尤其是托宾，就像我之前提到的，我们俩简直截然相反。比如，如果你把我们的简历并排放在一起，让你二选一，你可能会觉得正确答案显而易见；但说到底，两种选择都是正确的。Speaker: Cuz it's one of the most interesting conversations I have with a lot of my friends, especially Tobin like I mentioned earlier, because we both couldn't be more opposite from each other. Like if you look at both of our resumes lined up next to each other and I asked you to pick one or the other, uh you probably in your head will think it's pretty clear which one would be the right answer, but at the end of the day both are the right answer.

比如，我的 GPA 是 2.5，Tobin 的 GPA 是 4.0。我没能考上理想的学校，Tobin 则去了滑铁卢大学。我参加过 NCAA 一级联赛的体育比赛，Tobin 没有。我们之间还有各种各样的不同，但归根结底，我们俩都成了很出色的营销人员。不过，如果只看简历表面，这一点并不明显。我觉得 Whisper 在识别一两项真正关键的特质方面做得非常好。And like I had a 2.5 GPA, Tobin had a 4.0. I didn't go to a reach school, Tobin went to Waterloo. I played Division 1 sports, Tobin didn't. And like there's all these different things, but at the end of the day we both ended up being great marketers. But that wasn't really evident if you like looked at the face value of our resumes. But I think Whisper has done a really good job of like seeing one or two really key things.

而且也能看出来，嗯，这个人是否适合团队文化？他们看起来是否勤奋？他们是否和 Whisper 现有团队成员拥有相同的价值观或相似的文化？我觉得 Tenny、Daniel 和团队其他成员不仅很擅长及早发现人才、看出需要关注哪些关键特质，也很擅长判断：这个人是否合适，是否是一个值得加入团队的好人？And also like being able to see, okay, is this person a good fit for the for the culture? Do they seem hard working? If they have the same values or the same culture as people already at Whisper and like I feel like Tenny, Daniel, and the rest of the team are really good at not only spotting early talent and seeing what are those key things to look out for, but also seeing, okay, is this a good person, a good human to have on the team?

我觉得托宾和我——显然我这么说可能有点自夸——但我觉得我们完美地体现了这些性格特质。你可能会问，好吧，那我该在优秀的市场营销人才身上寻找哪些特质？说实话，这没那么复杂。比如，这个人有没有把一个账号做起来，哪怕只是涨到一万名粉丝？And I think Tobin and I obviously might be speaking a bit too much for myself, but I think we we embody those character traits perfectly. And you might be asking like, okay, well, what are the traits I need to look for in a good marketing hire? And it's like honestly, it's not that complex. It's like, has this person grown an account, even if it's like 10,000 followers?

而且，他们对创作者这件事有一定了解，也做过内容吗？就这么简单。只要他们有过积累粉丝的经验，哪怕粉丝不多，也能说明他们明白，要想扩大社交媒体粉丝群，需要保持怎样的稳定性。这也说明他们了解趋势，知道怎么制作视频、剪辑、拍摄等等。And do they somewhat understand what they're talking about in terms of creator and they've made content? Like that's how basic it is. Like as long as they have some experience in building a following, even if it's a small following, it shows you that they understand the consistency it takes to like grow a social media following. It shows you that they understand trends and how to make a video and how to edit and how to film, etc.

是的，我觉得归根结底还是看风格。他们看起来努力吗？人品好吗？还有，他们的粉丝数至少有一万、甚至一万五千吗？然后再试着给他们一个机会。你不能把一个年轻人招进来，然后就说，好吧，你还没达到我想要的水平，你走吧。比如 Tenny 和 Daniel，还有整个 Whisper 团队，总是给我们很多时间去学习、去犯错。And yeah, I think that like it comes down to style. Do they seem like a hard worker? Are they a good person? And do they have those like minimum like 10,000, 15,000 followers? And then taking a shot on them. And you can't just bring a young person in and then be like, okay, like you're not where you where I want you to be, like you're gone. Like Tenny and Daniel again and the whole Whisper team always gives us a lot of time to learn and fail.

而且我很确定，在 Whisper 的头七个月里，我有点儿……怎么说呢，做事挺没章法的。我现在还会拿这事跟 Daniel 开玩笑，说那时候时不时就会有一些不太好聊的谈话，让人忍不住问：“Hector 到底在干嘛？”不过，他们确实给了我自由，让我继续尝试、不断探索新事物。只要你一直在学习、不断进步，失败其实也没关系。And I know for a fact for the first seven months at Whisper, I was kind of a uh I was kind of all over the place. I I still joke about it with Daniel how um there was some hard conversations here and there where you're like, "What's Hector doing?" Um but yeah, they gave me the freedom to to keep experimenting and keep trying new things. And it didn't really matter if you failed as long as you're consistently learning and getting better and getting better.

托宾也是如此。托宾加入后，他们给了他一些钱和时间去尝试。大约两个月后，他找到了一个行之有效的办法，并把它坚持了下来。And like that's the same for Tobin. Tobin came in, they gave him some money and some time to experiment. And after like 2 months, he found something that worked and it stuck.

说话者：好，这非常有价值。前几天有条推文说，现在最难招的岗位，基本上就是找一个像你这样的人：能聊产品和技术层面的东西，能让大家兴奋起来，让产品变得更有吸引力。你也在告诉我们，这样的人才画像是什么样的。总结一下你刚才说的，首先，要有证据表明他们非常勤奋；其次，要有证据表明他们人品好，价值观和文化也与你们公司比较契合。Speaker: Okay, this is extremely valuable. There's this tweet the other day that came out of just like the hardest role to hire for right now is basically someone like you, someone they can talk about the product, the technical aspects, get people excited, make the product compelling. And you're telling us what this profile looks like. So, just to reflect back what you just said, one is evidence that they're very hard working, uh evidence they're a good person, that their values and culture kind of aligns with your company.

第三，他们确实已经把某个平台的粉丝数增长到了至少 1 万人。这个平台可以是任何平台，比如 Instagram、TikTok，Three, they've actually grown a platform to at least 10,000 followers. And this could be any platform, like Instagram, TikTok,

说话者：我觉得 Instagram 的信号可能最强，因为 TikTok 上通常有更多脑腐内容。Instagram 的内容看起来更精致，包装也更好。而且，作为一个平台，在那里获得的粉丝质量也更高。所以我觉得 Instagram 的信号可能比 TikTok 更强。在 TikTok 上很容易靠发一些无脑内容涨粉，我是这么认为的。Speaker: I I would say Instagram is probably the highest sign because TikTok is typically a bit more brain rot content. And like Instagram's like a bit more polished, better package. And also the followers you get on there as a platform are just better. So, I just think Instagram's probably a higher signal than TikTok. It's pretty easy to grow on TikTok like posting some brain rot stuff, I would say.

说话者：我明白了。那像 X 和 YouTube 这样的平台呢？Speaker: I see. What about like X and YouTube?

说话者：嗯，YouTube还不错，但我想说，如果你懂得如何玩转Instagram这样的平台，就能玩转任何平台。嗯，对，这就是我的经验。我的意思是，我觉得如果你能玩转Instagram和YouTube，我相信你就能玩转任何平台，尤其是如果你还年轻的话。比如我，直到大约两周前都没怎么在X上发过内容，结果粉丝数从大概500涨到了1.8万。Speaker: Uh YouTube is is decent, but I would say if you understand the platform like Instagram, you can crack any platform. Um and yeah, that's my experience. I mean, Instagram and YouTube I would say if you can if you can crack Instagram and YouTube, I confident, especially if you're a young individual, you can crack any platform. Like I I'd never posted on X much until like 2 weeks ago. And I went from like 500 followers on X to like 18,000.

我以前其实不太习惯在纯文字平台上发帖，不过大概一周后我就摸清了门道：这就是个拼产量的游戏。你得保持简短，有自己的风格，还得真正提供一些价值。这些其实都挺容易学的。我觉得如果你从 X 起步，要转向视频就会难一些，因为视频完全是另一回事。And I wasn't really used to posting on a text-only platform, but I figured it out after like a week, it's like, okay, it's a volume game. You need to keep it short, kind of have your own style, and like actually give some value. And like that was pretty easy to learn. And I I think if you start on X, it's a bit harder to get into video because video is like a whole another beast.

坐下来拍视频并不是件容易的事。我有一些同事，比如我曾鼓励他们开始制作视频。特别提一下 Eric，他是我们的媒体投放专员。如何制作视频。是的，他第一个月确实有点吃力，但我觉得走出舒适区，试着拍些视频是件好事。不过，这肯定不容易。Sitting down and filming is is not an easy thing. I've I've had some colleagues like I pushed them to start making videos. Um shout out to Eric. He's our He's our media buyer. How to make a video. And yeah, he he struggled a little bit in his first month, but I think it's good to step out of your comfort zone and and try and film some videos. But yeah, it's definitely not easy.

所以我会说，是的，Instagram 和 YouTube。So I would I would say yes, Instagram and YouTube.

说话人：其实我就是这样发现你和 X 的，然后事情就火起来了。最近我的整个信息流里全是 Hector 的视频。呃，所以我之前没意识到你才开始发内容两周。这也太厉害了。显然，这又证明了你在这方面有多么高效。Speaker: That's actually how I discovered you and X and it's just like blown up and now my entire feed is just Hector videos recently. Uh so uh So I didn't realize you just started posting in 2 weeks. That's insane. Clearly another sign of how effective you are at this.

年轻人才的重要性The importance of young talent

所以，我还想再重点谈谈另一个要点，就是年轻人才这个概念。这是你经常谈到的话题：雇用年轻人的价值，以及这几乎就像是一种超额收益。So another kind of uh bullet point I want to double down on there is just this idea of young talent. That's something you talk a lot about. Just the value and almost like the alpha in hiring young people.

发言人：是的。我的意思是，回到你刚才提到的那一点，也就是这个岗位是最难招聘的岗位。我觉得原因很简单，归根结底就是我提到的那两份简历。对于优秀的营销人员，或者懂社交媒体的优秀现代营销人员来说，并没有一条明确的职业路径。而且，如果你去看那些你可能认为是强信号的东西，不管是最好的成绩、最好的学校，嗯，还是某些专业。Speaker: Yeah. I mean, also going back to the point that you had just mentioned like how it's the hardest role to hire. I think it's very simple. It just boils down to like what I mentioned like the two resumes. You There's there's no clear path for a good marketer or good modern marketer who understands socials. And if you like look for these things that you might think are high signal whether it's like the best grades, the best school, um certain majors.

就像你最终不会得到你原本设想的那种营销人员一样。嗯，所以我觉得这很难，因为并没有一条真正明确的路径告诉你：“好，这就是找到下一个 Togan、下一个三型人格的人，或者下一个 X 这种人的方法。”所以，是的，如果你想找一个和我相似的人，我的建议是尽量别找和我相似的人，因为你不会找到合适的人。Like you're not going to end up with the marketer that you had envisioned. Um so I think that's why it's hard because there's no real like defined path of like, "Okay, this is how you find the next Togan or the next type three or the next X person." So yeah, I I would like my suggestion if you're trying to find someone similar to me would be try to not find someone similar to me because you're not going to find the right person.

这就像是点名表扬某个背景特别传奇的年轻人，背景越夸张越好，而且显然还得有作品作为证明。不过，你刚才问的重点是年轻人才的重要性，对吧？还有这为什么真的很重要。It's just like give a shout out to some kid who has like some crazy background and the crazier the better and obviously has some some proof um in the work. But yeah, the point that you were asking was the importance of young talent, right? And like why that really matters.

发言者：是的。Speaker: Yeah.

说话者：嗯，我觉得我在很多不同行业都见过这个例子。不知道你有没有听说过 Jimmy Fairly，他算是 TikTok Shop 的元老级人物之一。他好像从 17 岁左右就开始在那儿做了。我不太确定。后来他创办了一家规模很大的代理机构，和一些最大的品牌合作。最近我想他的代理机构被 Physician's Choice 以大约 200 万美元收购了，现在他在这家公司内部任职，同时也和另外两个品牌合作。Speaker: Um I think I've seen this example I've seen in a lot of different industries. I don't know if you've heard of Jimmy Fairly, but he's like one of the TikTok shop like OG guys. Like he's he's been on there I don't know since he was like 17. Built a huge agency. Works with some of the biggest brands. And recently I think his agency got acquired by Physician's Choice for like $2 million and now he's like in-house with them and also with two other brands.

但我刚刚看到这个孩子——我是说，他现在年纪比我大了——我见过他把自己置身于这些年长的创始人中间。而这些电商品牌的年长创始人总会说，身边有个 Jimmy 这样的人简直太有优势了，因为一个 30 到 40 岁的创始人，根本不懂一个 18 岁的孩子——他泡在 Discord 群聊里，或者每天刷 Instagram 和 TikTok——是什么样的。But I've just seen this kid like surround himself I mean he's older than me now, but I've seen him surround himself with like all these older founders and all these older founders of these e-com brands are always like just talking about how like having a Jimmy next to you is like so much alpha because a 30-40 year old founder doesn't understand what an 18-year old kid who's in these Discord chats or who's scrolling every day on Instagram and TikTok.

他们并不了解到底什么方法真正有效，也不知道该如何最好地开拓这些新渠道。如果你身边有年轻人，不管你身处哪个行业——SaaS、电商，还是其他领域——而且你能找到一个多少懂些你不懂的东西、也了解早期发展情况的人，让你可以向他们提问、向他们学习，我觉得团队里有这样一个人绝对是明智之举。They don't understand like what's actually working and the best ways to approach these new channels and if you have young people next to you in whatever industry you are whether you're in SaaS, you're in e-com whatever it is and you just find someone that kind of understands the things that you don't and the early things and you're able to ask questions and learn from them. I think it's a a no-brainer to have someone like that on your team.

就好像，即使你现在尽全力去涉足 TikTok Shop 或 Tribe，你还是会遇到困难，因为你可能没办法和创作者建立那么多联系，也可能有些事情不太懂。要熟悉这些东西，就得花很长时间。与其这样，不如把时间花在你更擅长的事情上，然后找个人来帮你管理这些事。It's like even even if you do your best now to dive into TikTok shop or into tribe, like you're still going to struggle because you're not going to be able maybe to connect as much with the creators or you're not going to understand certain things and it's just going to take you a a a lot longer time to get used to those things instead of like putting your time into something that you're better at and then bringing someone that can kind of manage those things for you.

发言者：我很喜欢这个建议。人们总是在说，你知道，年轻人已经没工作可找了。人工智能要抢走所有人的工作，而这正是一个很好的例子，说明年轻人其实更擅长做这类工作。Speaker: I love this advice. There's always talk about, you know, no no jobs left for young folks. AI is taking everyone's jobs and this is a really good example where young people are actually much better at this work.

发言人：是啊。而且我觉得，显然，Tanay 非常年轻，她是我认识的最聪明的人之一，但他还是会把我叫进办公室，或者打个电话，问我：“Instagram 上什么内容效果好？你怎么做得这么快？”或者就问我一些关于内容创作的问题。总之，我觉得我从 Tanay、他的团队以及整个团队身上都看到了这一点：我不认为人会聪明到不再需要学习。如果你秉持创始人的这种心态，我觉得一旦停止学习，就是停止成长的那一天。这是我从 Tanay 身上学到的东西：无论你多优秀、多聪明，都要继续学习，而学习对象甚至可能是一个素不相识的 22 岁或 19 岁年轻人，比如我。Speaker: Yeah. And I think obviously Tanay Tanay is super young and like she's one of the smartest people I know and like he'll still bring me into his office or hop on a call and like be asking me like oh like what's working on Instagram? Like how are you doing this so fast or or just like ask me questions about content in general and I don't I mean I don't think I've I've seen this from Tanay and the team and the team in general like I don't think there's ever a point where you get smart enough to where you need to stop learning and if you take that mentality of the founder, I think it's like the day you stop growing and that's something I've definitely learned from Tanay like you're never too good or too smart to continue learning and it can even be from a random 22-year old or 19-year old like me.

嗯，是的。Um yeah.

Hector从D1足球迈向Wispr Flow的旅程Hector’s journey from D1 soccer to Wispr Flow

说话人：我很喜欢这一点，而且你大概是 19 岁时加入 Vesper 的，对吧？Speaker: I love that and you joined Vesper for like 19, right?

说话者：是的，我刚满19岁。那大概是我生日后的第三天。Speaker: Yes, I had just turned 19. It was like 3 days after my my birthday.

说话者：嗯，那你过了多久才觉得，嗯，好吧，我、我好像摸索出点门道了？你说一开始有点磕磕绊绊，也不太确定自己在做什么。Speaker: Uh and how long did it take you to feel like okay, I've I've kind of figure something out? You said initially it was kind of rocky and not sure what you were doing.

说话人：是啊，我是说……Speaker: Yeah, I mean

发言人：为大家提供一些背景信息。Speaker: Give people some context.

说话人：那真是一个……那真是一个很奇怪的转变，因为我当时才刚刚在大概三天前退出了一级联赛足球队。嗯，然后我就直接回家，在 LinkedIn 上搜了 WhisperFlow。哦，对，我想说的是，我在 LinkedIn 上搜了创作者相关的工作。嗯，我申请了大概 200 个职位，后来发现了一家叫 WhisperFlow 的公司。我申请了，嗯，和 Tanae 通了电话，然后就加入了。对，那真是太疯狂了。Speaker: It was a It was a weird transition cuz I had just quit division one soccer like 3 days before as well. Um and I literally went home, looked up WhisperFlow on LinkedIn. Well, yeah, I want to say I looked up creator jobs on LinkedIn. Um I applied to like 200 positions, have found some company called WhisperFlow. I applied, um had a call with Tanae, and then I joined. And yeah, it was It was crazy.

就像回想起一些往事一样，记得吗？那大概是我们准备发布的头几天之一。我当时在——我想是在上微积分课，Tanae 开始在课上给我发 Slack 消息，然后我就离开教室去洗手间，打开笔记本电脑，接着，嗯，我加入了 Slack 群组语音通话，他基本上是这么说的：“我们的发布视频并不代表……”Like looking back at some of the memories, like remember It was like one of the first days when we're getting ready for our launch. And I was in my I think it was my calculus class, and Tanae started slacking me in class, and I I left to go to the bathroom and popped up my laptop, and I started um I hopped into to the Slack huddle, and he was basically like, "Our launch video isn't what it means to be.

“你觉得你能用 CapCut 或者手头上的其他工具剪一下，让它更有点 Z 世代的感觉吗？”然后嘛，我还修了一门微积分课，接着就开始剪视频了。我有一些剪辑经验，但在我刚加入 Whisper 的头几周，Tanae 就让我做这个，还是挺吓人的。不过，这基本上概括了我在 Whisper 的第一年：我接手各种零零碎碎的事情，也没有一个明确的职位。Do you think you can edit it on CapCut or whatever tools you have and make it a bit more Gen Z vibes?" And yeah, I got a calculus, and I just started editing a video. I had some editing experience, but for Tanae on my one of my first weeks to ask me to do that was pretty scary. But yeah, that was pretty much summed up my first year at Whisper. I just picked up random stuff, didn't really have a clear position.

我很确定他们其实也不太清楚我在做什么。我自己也不知道我在做什么。是啊，我大概花了一年时间才真正觉得自在。中间起起落落很多。还有，其实我也想指出一点：之后我还在做一份金融实习。所以，那时已经过了一年，已经过了整整一个学年。I'm pretty sure they didn't really know what I was doing either. I didn't know what I was doing. And yeah, it probably took me a year to like feel actually comfortable. And there was there was a lot of ups and downs. And actually one thing I want to point out as well is I was also doing a finance internship after So, it'd been a year It had been a whole school year.

然后就到了我从大三升大四的时候，那年夏天我申请了——嗯，我年初申请了很多金融实习，因为我不知道做内容是不是一份真正的职业。And then it was my junior going to senior year, and that summer I had applied Well, I had applied to a bunch of finance internships early in the year because I didn't know if content was a real career.

显然，我很享受做 Whisper，也靠自己的个人品牌赚了不少钱，但我当时心想：“我不知道这算不算一份真正的职业。”我父母当年移民到了美国，所以我上大学、学金融这件事对他们来说意义重大，他们也希望我走传统的职业道路。于是，我最后在纽约市找到了一份金融实习，同时还要兼顾两门暑期课程、WhisperFlow 和这份金融实习。Like obviously I was enjoying Whisper, and I was making some decent money for my personal brand, but I was like, "I don't know if this is a a real career." And my parents, like we immigrated to the US and everything, and like me being in college and like studying finance was a big deal, and they wanted me to go down the traditional route. So, I ended up landing a finance internship in New York City, and I was balancing two summer classes, WhisperFlow, and finance internship.

实习才进行了大概两周，我就已经很讨厌那份工作了。我当时就想：“我不想过这样的生活。我得做内容创作，还得把 Whisper 做起来。”所以我会偷偷溜出办公室，去苏豪区的咖啡馆，做 Whisper 和自己的内容。后来，一切就开始慢慢理顺了。对，大概就是这么回事。And like 2 weeks into the internship, but hated it. And I was like, "I do not want my life to be like this. I need to make content and Whisper work out. So, I'd sneak out the office and go to some cafes in Soho and just work on Whisper and my personal content. And then from there, everything started to like click and then yeah, that that's kind of how how it worked.

发言人：真是一段漫长的历程。我觉得，我们完全可以专门聊聊创作者的发展之路，以及如何在 Instagram 和其他这些平台上成为内容创作者。这本身就是另一个话题。Speaker: What a journey. I feel like we could have a whole other conversation about just the creator path and how to become a content creator on Instagram and all these platforms. That's its own that's its own thing.

分步指南：如何从零开始建立一个付费用户生成内容（UGC）群组Step-by-step: How to build a paid-UGC group from zero

我稍后会再讲讲，如何为这种付费 UGC 策略寻找创作者。I'm going to come back to how you find the creators for this kind of paid UGC strategy.

发言人：如果我们现在坦诚地把整个策略梳理一遍，我觉得正是个好时机。嗯，所以，没错，就像我们刚才提到的，第一步大概是先弄清楚：如果你做的是 SaaS，就按广告支出的百分比来收费；如果你做的是电商，就按 GMV 的百分比来收费。然后，你就可以在自己选择的平台上建立群组。Speaker: If we walked through the whole strategy honestly now, I think this would be a good moment to to walk through everything. Um so, yeah, like I guess like we were mentioning, the first step is kind of figuring out okay, like if you're in SaaS, you're going to do percent of ad spend. If you're in e-commerce, you're going to do percent of GMV. And then from there, you'll set up the group whatever platform you choose.

我觉得 Tribe 是最好的。我们在 Whisper 用的就是它。等你把群组设置好之后，就得真正开始寻找创作者了。想想看，这就像你从零开始创办一家公司，进入一个平台，那里有成千上万的创作者和品牌，而你的公司毫无历史积累。很可能你没法找到最顶尖的创作者。I think Tribe is the best one. It's the one we use at Whisper. And then once you have your group set up, it's like okay, now you have to go actually find the creators. And if you think about it, it's like imagine you're starting a company from zero and you land on a platform and there's thousands of creators, thousands of brands and your company has no history. More than likely, you're not going to be able to get the best of the best.

嗯，这就是很多公司做错的地方。他们开始在这些平台上大量拓展合作，然后就会想：创作者为什么愿意和一个没什么钱的品牌合作呢？比如在 Tribe 上，会显示我们付给创作者多少钱，大概是 30 万美元；还会显示我们群里有多少创作者，以及我们正在投放多少广告之类的信息。Um and this is where a lot of companies go wrong. They'll start doing a lot of outreach on these platforms and they're like, why would a creator want to work for a brand that has like no money like for example, on Tribe it says how much money we paid out to creators. It's like $300,000. It says how many creators we have in the group and then how many ads we have running or whatever.

嗯，比如说，当创作者看到我们已经支付了 30 万美元，而且平台上只有 50 位创作者时，你可以想象我们会收到多少主动联系。但反过来说，如果你是一个一分钱都没支付出去、一个创作者都没有的品牌，那就很难吸引创作者加入。所以，我做的就是先在平台外面找，然后也去 Instagram 这样的平台上找。你只要搜索一堆关键词就行。Um and like when creators see that we've paid $300,000 out and that we only have 50 creators in, you can imagine the amount of inbound that we get. But on the contrary, if you're a brand who has $0 paid out and zero creators, it's going to be really hard to get creators in. So, what I did is I went off platform and I went on platform like Instagram. And you just look up a bunch of keywords.

可以是 UGC 创作者之类的，嗯，我也不知道，科技、朝九晚五、律师、医生、助眠补充剂……不管你在哪个细分领域，都可以深入挖掘一大堆相关话题。Can be like UGC creators, um I don't know, tech, 9-to-5, lawyer, doctor, um sleep supplements, whatever niche you're in and just go down a bunch of rabbit holes.

然后你会找到自己喜欢的创作者，发、发私信，然后也去翻他们的关注列表和粉丝列表，再搜索完全相同的关键词。因为通常优秀的创作者也认识其他优秀的创作者。然后我会说，一周大概发150到250条私信。这些私信应该非常有针对性。不能想着“哦，我要用某种群发软件，一口气发3000条消息”。你需要非常、非常在意这些小细节。因为如今有各种自动化工具，没错，你可以很快做很多事；但如果做得太快，你很可能会收到一堆垃圾回复，或者找到一堆不怎么样的创作者。And then you'll land on creators that you like, send send and then you also go through their following and follower list and you also search those same exact keywords. Because typically good creators know other good creators and then I say from around like 150 to 250 DMs over a week. And like these should be very targeted DMs. Like it shouldn't be like, "Oh, I'm going to use some mass software and send 3,000 messages." Needs to be very You you need to you need to care about the small things because nowadays with like all these automations, like yes, you can do a lot of things fast, but if you do it very fast, you're probably going to get a lot of slot back or a lot of bad creators back.

嗯，我觉得在拓展联系方面，还是手动操作更好。显然，这会花更长一点时间，但只要做得好，我之后就再也不用主动联系别人了。And I yeah, I think for outreach it's still better to do it manually. Obviously, it's going to take a bit longer, but if you do it right, I haven't had to do outreach ever again.

嗯，对，从发出的 150 到 250 条私信里，你大概能找到五六位非常优秀的创作者。接下来，你把他们拉进群里，然后就进入下一步，也就是逐步建立社群文化，比如为创作者举办各种活动，像是开会之类的。我们每周都会开会。现在我们已经发展到有创作者教练的阶段，他们也会帮助创作者保持活跃和投入。Um and yeah, from those 150 to 250 DMs, you're probably going to get like five or six really good creators. Then from there, you onboard them to the group and then that's where you get to the next step, which would be actually building out the culture, um which is like just doing all these yes, events and things for the creators, whether it be like meetings, um like we host weekly meetings. Now we're at a stage where we have creator coaches that help keep our creators engaged as well.

我们会做赠品活动。嗯，下个月我们会在旧金山举办一次创作者静修活动。嗯，我们会从世界各地邀请一些最优秀的创作者飞来参加。诸如此类的小举措，能让你逐渐营造出越来越浓厚的文化氛围。然后，在此基础上，你已经有了一小群创作者，也设定好了广告支出占比和 GMV 占比，还营造了这种文化氛围。We do giveaways. Um we're hosting a retreat in San Francisco next month. Um we're flying in some of our best creators from around the world. So like these little things that you start to do to build up more and more culture. And then from there, so you have a small group of creators, you've also set up the like percent of ad spend and percent of GMV, and you've also built a culture.

然后从这里开始，你可以慢慢增加创作者。我们在 Whisper 上的做法是，大概从 5 个增加到 10 个，再从 10 个增加到 15 个、从 15 个增加到 20 个。我们大概每隔几周就会增加 5 到 6 位创作者。现在到了这个阶段，你已经有了大约 5 位创作者，也可能已经付出了一些费用，于是就会开始有人申请加入 Tribe。Then from there, you can slowly start to add more and more creators. And the way we did that at Whisper is we probably went from like five to 10, 10 to 15, 15 to 20. We probably added like five to six creators like every few weeks. And since you're now since at this point you also have like the five creators and you've probably paid out a bit of money, you'll start to get some people start to apply on Tribe.

我想我们现在每周大概会收到 1,000 到 1,500 份申请。所以我会审核这些创作者的申请。如今我们有很多创作者了，因此我把门槛设得很高，可能只会接受一两个或三个。不过，我们发展得相当慢，现在大概有 50 位创作者。除了接受来自 Tribe 的创作者，我们实际上还做了一件事：我们引入了——推出了一项推荐计划，每位创作者每推荐一位创作者加入这个群体，我们就会支付 100 美元。I think now we probably get like 1,000 to 1,500 applications a week. So I go through those creator applications and then from there, since we now have a lot of creators, I keep a really high bar and I'll only accept maybe one or two or three. But yeah, we grew pretty slowly and now we're like 50 creators. And aside from like accepting creators from Tribe, one of the things we've done actually is we've in- introduced a referral program where we will pay creators $100 per creator they bring bring into the group.

而且这不是什么多层次传销金字塔骗局之类的。之前有一大群人在 LinkedIn 上，我那条帖子在 LinkedIn 上火了，大家都在说：“这听起来像骗局啊，像什么传销金字塔骗局，或者那种销售套路。”但我们不是单纯为了让他们把创作者拉过来就付钱。我们付钱是让他们介绍一位创作者过来。如果我觉得合适，我们才会把这位创作者引进来。And it's not some sort of like MLM pyramid scheme thing. Like there was a bunch of people on LinkedIn. My post blew up on LinkedIn and everyone was like, "This sounds like a scam. Like sounds like an MLM pyramid or whatever sales." And like we're not paying them to just bring creators in. It's like we're paying them to send a creator over. If I think they're a good fit, then we'll bring them in.

但我们不想再让更多人加入了。比如说，我们的人数上限是 50 人。可不是说“哦，给我找 100 位创作者，我就按 100 位创作者给你付钱，然后我们再付钱给另外 100 位创作者”。这是一个关系非常紧密的大家庭，我们只是想借此感谢大家帮助我们壮大这个项目。对，这些就是你们为扩大团队规模采取的一些不同手段。接下来就说到最后一步了，不过我也不太清楚。But we don't want more people in. Like we're capped at 50. It's not like, "Oh, bring me 100 creators and I'll pay you for 100 creators and then we'll pay another 100 creators." Like this is a very tight-knit family and it's just our way of saying thank you for helping us grow the program. And yeah, those are like some different levers we've you've applied to kind of grow the group. And then that brings me to the last step, which I don't know.

我是不是讲得太快了，还是……Am I going too fast through this or

发言者：不，我没事。我确实有些问题，不过你继续说。Speaker: No, I'm good. I do have questions, but keep going.

发言者：是的，这就说到了最后一步。现在你已经有了这种文化，有了群里的人，规模也还算不错，也掌握了 GMV 占比和广告支出占比。接下来会开始出现一种情况：你会有很多广告。你的广告会在群里展示出来，比如：“好，哪条广告的支出最高，哪条排第二，哪条排第三？”创作者都能看到这些信息。Speaker: Yeah, that brings me to the last step, which is like now you have the culture, you have the people in the group, you have you're at like a decent size, you have the the percent of GMV, percent of ad spend. And now one thing that's going to start to happen is you're getting a lot of ads. And your ads are going to show like in the group. It's going to show like, "Okay, which is the ad that's doing the most spend, second most spend, the third spend?" And your creators can see these things.

而且显然，你肯定希望他们能看到这些广告。但如果你不擅长指导创作者，这也可能适得其反，因为这些创作者会看到表现最好的广告，然后就会想：“好，那我也要照着这些广告来做，我也要照搬他们的做法。”结果就是，你会得到 300 条看起来都一样、感觉也都一样的广告。And like obviously you want them to see it. But it can also backfire if you're not like good at coaching your creators because these creators will see the top-performing ads and they'll like they'll be like, "Okay, I want I'm going to copy those ads as well. I'm going to copy what they're doing." And if you end up doing that, what ends up happening is you get 300 ads that all look the same, they all feel the same.

而且 Meta 这边，如果一条广告有 160% 的相似度，它最后就会把它们归到一起，不管是穿着同样的 T 恤、身处同样的场景，还是说着同样的话。现在 Andromeda 已经非常复杂了。比如说，它会把你的广告反复扫描五遍，提取字幕稿，提取每一帧画面，还会查看屏幕上的文字。你想想看，基本上没有什么能逃过它的检测。And Meta, when an ad is like 160% similar, it ends up grouping it together whether it's like the same t-shirts, you're in the same setting, you're saying the same words. Like Andromeda is super complex now. And for example, it'll scan your ad like five times over, it'll pull the transcript, it'll pull like each frame out, it'll look at the the text on screen. And like if you like think about it, like like nothing's going to get past that.

所以，如果你总是重复使用相同的形式、相同的信息和相同的人，很快就会产生广告疲劳。嗯，我们会不断鼓励这些创作者，也提醒他们：这些创作者之所以能赚这么多钱，他们的广告之所以表现都名列前茅，是因为他们一直在尝试，并且不断发挥自己作为创作者真正擅长的方面，以及自己真正感兴趣的内容。And it that's why you can reach ad fatigue really quickly if you're constantly repeating the same formats, the same messaging, the same people. Um so what we do is we continuously like push these creators and remind them like the reason these creators are making so much money and that their ads are all at the top is because they kept experimenting and they keep they kept leaning into what they were actually good at as creators and what interests them as creators.

如果你只是照着 A、B 或 C 这些人做，那你的广告排名就会落在他们后面，也就拿不到任何投放量。所以我们一直鼓励创作者不断尝试，持续做些大胆出格的东西。看看我们资料库里的一些广告就知道了。这也是为什么我常说，创作者有时比我更了解产品，能想出比我更好的概念和点子——所以我才会尽量不写创意简报。And if you just follow what person A, B, or C are doing, then your ads are just going to rank under them and you're not going to get any spend. So, we constantly push creators to just keep experimenting, keep doing crazy stuff. And when you look at some of the ads in our library, it's like that's why I say like the creators sometimes understand the product better than me and come up with better concepts and ideas better than me and that's why I stay away from briefs.

比如我们最近做过的一个特别好的广告：这位创作者把键盘放在窗外的屋顶上，当时正在下雨。这个画面一下就抓住了你的注意力，因为视觉效果很有意思。然后镜头转过去，画面上写着：“我的键盘想说什么？”接着镜头转向他的笔记本电脑，雨滴开始打字，随后键盘就开始输入一些随机的词，最后画面上出现：“下载 Whisper Flow。”Like one example of a really good ad that we had recently was this this creator had his keyboard outside his window on a roof and it was raining and it it was like, okay, so it's like it stops you cuz it's like a very interesting visual hook. And then it pans over and on the thing it says, "What is my keyboard trying to say?" And it pans over to his laptop and it's like the raindrops are typing and then it starts typing random words and then it says, "Download Whisper Flow."

结果它成了我们表现最好的广告之一。我都不知道我们当初是怎么想到这个点子的。嗯，得给他点个赞。不过，这就是保持开放、不设限的结果。你有一款有趣的产品，也让创作者尽情发挥、不断尝试。没错，我们广告库里的广告没有两条看起来是一样的。And that ended up becoming one of our best-performing ads. It's like I don't even know how we came up with that. Um so, kudos to him. But that's what happens when you keep it really open-ended. You fun product um and you let the creators have fun and just keep experimenting. And yeah, like no two ads in our ad library look the same.

发言人：哇，太棒了。好，我来试着梳理一下这里的步骤，因为这里有很多很有价值的建议。第一步，在 Tribe 上注册。Tribe 算是一个管理创作者、付款之类的平台。你的建议是，别通过 Tribe 去找他们，因为目前还没人会在意你；你建议去 Instagram 上搜索关键词，比如你所在市场相关的内容、UGC、科技，以及可能想赚点外快的律师，然后招募最初的五个人。Speaker: Wow, amazing. Okay. Let me try to walk through the steps here cuz this was so much juicy gold stuff uh advice. So, step one, sign up on Tribe. Tribe is kind of where you manage creators and pay out and all that kind of stuff. Uh your advice here is don't work through Tribe to find them because no one's going to care about you yet and your advice is go to Instagram, keyword search for things like kind of in your market, UGC, tech, lawyers that maybe want to make money on the side to recruit the first five.

建议从五个开始，不要一下子搞得太大。好。The advice is start with five, don't go too big. Okay.

发言人：而且我觉得，也不能只是一上来就从五个人开始，或者从律师开始，或者不管是什么。你得看看自己的广告素材库和产品，然后想想：“好，我们到底有哪些具体的短板需要补上？”因为越多不一定越好，这适用于生活中的方方面面。尤其是在创作者方面，如果你只是找来一百或两百个风格相同的创作者，也不会带来规模增长，因为所有内容看起来还是一模一样。Speaker: And I would I would also it's not even just start with five or start with lawyers or or whatever. It's like you have to look at your ad library and look at your product and be like, "Okay, what specific gaps do we have that we actually need to fill in?" Because more isn't necessarily better and like that applies to everything in life, but specifically in creators, if you just bring 100 or 200 of the same creators that isn't going to lead to scale because again, everything's going to look the exact same.

但当你引入五位创作者时，他们各自面向特定的受众，也可能各自传达产品的不同信息。这样你就净增了五位不同的创作者，他们都能创造全新的内容，而且随着你引入的创作者越来越多，效果就会呈指数级增长。But when you bring in five creators that each speak to a specific audience, each speak to maybe a specific messaging of your product. You get five net five different creators that can all make net new concepts and like it just exponentially grows the more different creators you bring on board.

所以，这不仅仅是要引进少数几位创作者，更要明确你实际引进的是哪几位创作者。So, it's like not just the the point about bringing a few creators, it's also being very specific about those few creators you're actually bringing in.

发言者：所以，当你这么说时，要考虑你面向的客户群体和市场是什么、目标 ICP 是谁，以及哪位创作者能够触达这类受众。Speaker: And so, when you say that, it's think about what customer kind of market, what ICP you're targeting, and what's the creator that will speak to that audience.

说话人：没错。所以在 Whispire，我们的用户来自各行各业，有妈妈、律师等等。Whispire 最棒的一点就是，当你拥有一款大家都喜欢的产品时，就会有很多很酷的人想和你的品牌合作。我们有一位电商创业者，公司的营收达到八位数，他非常喜欢 Whispire，甚至主动为我们制作广告。我觉得这简直不可思议。一个经营着成功电商业务的人，因为太喜欢 Whispire，只想成为我们社区的一员；他 45 岁，有孩子。总之，我们的用户群体几乎涵盖了你能想到的所有人。Speaker: Exactly. So, at Whispire, we have everything from like moms to lawyers, we have like this the awesome thing about Whispire is like when you have a product that people love, like you get so many cool people wanting to work with your brand. We have like an eight-figure e-com founder that loves Whispire so much that he just makes ads for us. And it's like I find that pretty incredible. Like some dude who has a successful e-com business, he loves Whispire so much he just wants to be part of the community and he's like 45, has kids, and yeah, like we have basically anything you can imagine.

工程师、律师，嗯，妈妈，呃，销售代表、代理机构老板——任何你能想到的 ICP 类型。我也经常被不同领域的许多创始人问到这个问题，他们会联系我说：“哦，我有一款开发者工具，或者我在睡眠领域。”Engineers, lawyers, um moms, uh sales reps, agency owners, like any any type of ICP you can imagine. And I get this question a lot as well from a lot of founders in different businesses reaching out and they'll be like, "Oh, well, I have a dev tool or I'm in the sleep space.

“我没法为我的品牌创作内容，或者我在 UGC 方面一直没成功。”很多时候，人们会把 UGC 误认为只是大学生在创作内容，但 UGC 指的是用户生成内容。如果你做的是开发者工具，你的用户很可能是年纪较大的技术人员，你不能、不能、不能指望找个不懂技术的 18 岁年轻人来介绍你的产品。I can't make content for for my brand or I haven't had success with UGC." And a lot of times what happens is people mistake UGC for thinking it's just college kids making content, but UGC is user-generated content and if you're a dev tool, your user's probably going to be an older technical person and you can't you can't you can't get by bringing on 18-year-old who isn't technical to talk about your product.

而且那些广告看起来可能会很不一样，真的可能会很不一样。比如说，在 Whispire，我们面向年长人群投放的技术类广告——他们不太用 Instagram，或者可能比较严肃——广告越无聊、越难看，效果反而越好。形式可以很简单，比如录屏展示某人如何使用你的产品。And those ads might look a lot different look they might look a lot different. Like for example, our technical ads at Whispire, when you're speaking to like this older demographic who isn't really on Instagram that much or isn't maybe a bit more serious, the more boring and the uglier the ads are, the better they will perform and that can be something as simple as like a screen recording of someone using your product.

可能会有一分钟那么长，也可能是 30 秒。也可能特别长。比如我们一些表现最好的广告，你看了会觉得：“我的天，这也太丑了吧。这些广告也太差了。”嗯，但它们在某些特定受众群体中表现最好，这些人可能年纪稍大一些，也可能更懂技术。睡眠产品也是一样。比如说，你在睡眠领域或行业里卖一款昂贵的产品，结果让一个 18 岁的小伙子来卖，那你为什么要——或者说，我为什么要——花 3,000 美元从一个小伙子手里买产品呢？It could be like a minute, 30 seconds long. Like it can be super long. Like some of our best ads, you would look at them and you'd be like, "Holy cow, these are ugly. These are such bad ads." Um but they actually perform the best for those specific audiences that maybe are a bit older, maybe are a bit more technical. And it's like the same thing for for a sleep product. Like if you have an expensive product in the sleep in sleep niche or industry whatever, um, and you have an 18-year-old kid selling it, why are you or why am I going to buy a $3,000 product from a kid?

可能那样行不通。你想从一个说话方式可能和你一样、做着和你一样的事情、面临和你一样问题的人那里购买。嗯，而且，是的，我觉得 UGC 对任何公司都适用。Probably it's not going to work that way. You want to buy from someone who maybe speaks the same way you do, who works in the same things you do, has the same problems you do. Um, and and yeah, I think UGC works for for any company.

只是你越往上游走，或者产品越贵、越小众，就会稍微难一些。但归根结底就是：好吧，我该怎么找到那些愿意围绕我的产品创作内容的用户？It's just the maybe more upstream you go or the more expensive your product is and the more niche it is, it gets a little bit harder, but it's just like, okay, how do I find users who want to make content about my product?

发言者：而这种对哪些内容有效的意外发现，我想也是你投放这么多广告的部分原因。你提到自己每个月会投放大约 700、500、1,000 条广告。部分原因就是为了找出哪些广告效果好。Speaker: And this unexpected element of what works, um, is part of the reason I imagine you run so many ads. You mentioned you do like 700, 500, 1,000 ads a month. Part of the reason is to discover the ones that are working.

说话人：没错。对，因为我觉得广告比自然内容还要更难琢磨。我大致能说清楚什么样的自然内容效果好，但有时我看到一条广告，心里就会想：这到底是什么啊？结果它最后却成了表现最好的那条，所以我觉得多做些尝试是好事。我们不会把标准定得那么高，比如广告不是这种效果或那种效果，我们就不投放。Speaker: Exactly. Yeah, because a- ads I would say is almost weirder than organic content. Like I can kind of put my finger on what works on organic, but sometimes I'll see an ad that comes in and I'm like, what the heck is this? And it ends up becoming the best performer, so that's why I think it's just good to experiment. Don't really have like such a high bar for like, oh, if the ad doesn't work this way or that way, we're not going to run it.

再比如，我一年前做的一些广告，简直就是录下某人使用产品的屏幕画面，顶部加了几行文字，比例是 9:16，视频特别长。它们既是效果最好的广告，也是最难看的广告。Like again, some of the ads that I made a year ago, it's literally like a screen recording of someone using the product with some text at the top, 9 by 16, super long video, and they're our best ads and they're our ugliest ones as well.

演讲者：本季的协力赞助商是 DX。现在，你们公司的每个人终于都在使用 AI，工程领导者面临的问题已不再是“我们在使用 AI 吗？”，而是“它带来回报了吗？”借助 DX，你可以衡量并对标 AI 在整个产品生命周期中的应用成效。DX 能告诉你 AI 在哪些方面帮助了开发者，又在哪些方面造成了新的瓶颈。你还可以用它来评估 AI 供应商、监控成本和许可证，并准确了解是什么在限制你的智能体。Speaker: This season's supporting sponsor is DX. Now that everybody at your company is finally using AI, the question that engineering leaders face is no longer are we using AI, but is it paying off? With DX, you can measure and benchmark the impact of AI adoption across your full product life cycle. DX shows you where AI is helping developers and where it's creating new bottlenecks. You can also use it to evaluate AI vendors, monitor costs and licenses, and see exactly what's limiting your agents.

这就是为什么包括 Snowflake、Sony 和 BNY 在内的数百家企业，都在使用 DX 平台衡量 AI 对开发者生产力的影响。访问 getdx.com/lenny，预约 DX 演示。网址是 getdx.com/lenny。That's why hundreds of enterprises, including Snowflake, Sony, and BNY, use the DX platform to measure AI's impact on developer productivity. Visit getdx.com/lenny to get a demo of DX. That's getdx.com/lenny.

联系创作者Reaching out to creators

发言者：你联系创作者时，私信通常会怎么写？Speaker: What does the DM look like when you reach out to a creator?

说话人：所以，这多少要看具体情况，说实话，方法也有好几种。很多时候，作为品牌方，你们可能已经收到不少创作者的私信，或者已经有很多创作者关注了你们。所以，我真正会首先着手的地方就是这里。我们早期的很多创作者也是从这里找到的：我们会直接打开关注列表，搜索 UGC 或创作者。Speaker: So, it kind of depends and there's honestly some different ways to go about it. A lot of times as a brand, you'll actually have a lot of creators already in your DMs or a lot of creators that are already following you. So, that's like the number one place I would actually start and a lot of our early creators came from there is we would just go into our following list and look up UGC or look up creators.

然后也去看看我们的私信请求，你会发现很多创作者。接下来就很简单了，因为他们已经关注你了，很可能也已经喜欢你的产品。所以你可以直接说：“嘿，Lenny，我看了你的内容，非常喜欢。呃，我很希望你能加入我们的创作者团队。”我不一定会马上推销它，也不一定会马上提基于效果的合作模式，因为这对创作者来说还挺新鲜的——这种新模式他们才刚开始接触，而且一开始很多人都会心存疑虑，我也理解他们为什么会这样。And then also go through our DM requests and you'll actually like come across a lot of creators. And from there, it's like they already follow you, they probably already like your product. So, it gets really easy and you can just be like, "Hey Lenny, I saw your content. I really enjoyed it. Uh I would love to have you be part of our creator group." And I don't necessarily pitch it. I don't necessarily pitch the performance-based thing yet because it's still a pretty it's still a relatively new thing for creators like hearing this new model and a lot of them are skeptical at first, which I understand why.

但甚至就在大概七个月前、六个月前，这件事还要新鲜得多。嗯，所以即使在那时候，像今天一样，我也不会一上来就直接特别卖力地推销。我只会说：“嗨，我很喜欢你的内容。希望你能加入我们的创作者社群。你有兴趣吗？”之后你就会收到回复。他们可能会问你更多详情。然后我会给他们一份非常简单的 PDF。But even like 7 months ago, 6 months ago, it was even more like new. Um so, even then, like today I still wouldn't start with that and like go straight into pitching super hard. I just be like, "Hey, love your content. Would love to have you be part of our creator group. Are you interested?" From there, you'll get a response back. They'll probably ask you for some more details. And then I have like a PDF that's like super simple.

我会大致给他们介绍一下项目的结构、我们付多少钱，以及我们的一些创作者能赚多少钱。然后我就会跟他们通个电话，说服他们加入，让他们在 Discord 上完成入驻，给他们 WhisperFlow 代码，然后让他们开始制作视频。另一种方式是，如果他们没有关注我们，而我主动联系他们，我就会给他们发私信，说：“嘿，我不知怎么就刷到了你的内容……”I just kind of explain the program structure, how much we pay, how much some of our creators are making. And then from there, I'll just hop on a call with them, close them, and get them like onboarded in Discord, get them WhisperFlow code, and then get them making videos. And the other way is if they don't follow us and I'm doing outreach, is I'll just send them a DM and be like, "Hey, I have somehow across your content.

“我真的很喜欢它。很希望你能加入我们的 WhisperFlow 小组。这就是这个工具，也就是它的工作方式。嗯，这是链接。如果你感兴趣，告诉我一声。”然后，如果他们再次表示感兴趣，我就会向他们介绍这个项目，流程也差不多。I really enjoyed it. I'd love to have you be part of our WhisperFlow group. This is the tool. This is how it works. Um here's the link to it. Let me know if you'd be interested." And then from there, if they're interested again, I'll pitch them and it's kind of the same sort of route.

说话者：这是来自 WhisperFlow 的 Instagram 账号吗？Speaker: And this is from the WhisperFlow Instagram account?

说话人：有时候这两种方式我都会用，因为我自己也是创作者，所以我也会……我自己会做很多这类事情，这也是雇用内容领域人才的好处之一。Whisper 在内容领域最优秀的一些员工，是我通过在 Instagram 快拍上发帖招来的；我们最优秀的一些创作者也是这样招来的。我会说：“嘿，我在找 UGC 创作者。”然后发一条快拍。或者说，嘿，我在找一位摄像师。Speaker: Sometimes I do either or because I also so since I'm a creator myself, I also I a lot of I do which is also the pros of hiring people who are in content. Some of our best hires at Whisper in content have been through me posting on Instagram stories or our best creator hires. I'll be like, "Hey, I'm looking for UGC creators." Just post a story. Or hey, I'm looking for a videographer.

或者说，嘿，我正在找一位编辑。这算是聘用内容创作者的好处之一。嗯，如果他们能持续创作内容，而你只要确保他们创作的是高价值内容，他们也可以成为一种非常好的招聘渠道。对，这得看情况。如果你找的是一位创作者，我觉得效果相当不错。嗯，显然你也能让创作者本人出镜，诸如此类。Or hey, I'm looking for an editor. Like that's one of the cool things about hiring a content creator. Um if if they make again content and and you just make sure they make high value content is they can also be used as like a very good hiring mechanism. And yeah. It depends. Like if if you have someone who's a creator, I think it works pretty well. Um you obviously you get creator face, whatever.

还有，如果你是个非常知名的品牌，显然，要是你的创作者收到耐克之类的品牌发来的消息，你懂我的意思吧？And then also if you're a really well-known brand, obviously if your creator getting a message from like Nike or whatever, you know what I mean?

点赞，这会显得很有诚意，你也更有可能收到回复。Like it it's very impressive and you're probably more likely to get a response.

在创作者群体中培育文化Building culture inside your creator group

我觉得这取决于具体情况。I think it just depends.

说话人：然后，好吧，你私信他们，他们有兴趣，你就发给他们一个大致的介绍。最开始，比如前五个，你会说尽快约个电话，简单推介一下，介绍一下这个项目。那退出流程大概是什么样的？Speaker: And then okay, so you DM them, they're interested, you send them kind of an overview. In the early say the first five, you say you hop on a call pretty quickly and just kind of pitch them and explain the program. What's like downboarding look like?

说话者：这些创作者早已习惯被人利用，他们做的一切似乎都只是一场交易。他们拍一条视频，拿到报酬，然后就再也不会和对方联系。我们身处一个万事皆数字化、万事皆虚拟的时代。大多数人都远程办公，大多数创作者也都远程工作，而他们和普通人一样，渴望融入社群。Speaker: These creators are very used to just being used and like just it's everything they do is like a transaction. They make a video, they get paid, and they never talk to a person again. And we live in a like day and age where everything is digital, everything's virtual. Most people are working remote, most creators are remote, and they crave community on the same way just like a regular person would crave community.

我们会确保从一开始就建立联系，最后彼此就像朋友一样，一起合作。我不会把他们看成只是那种“嘿，我要从你这里拿几条视频，然后就再也不联系了”的创作者。就像你说的，我会和他们通电话，还会准备一整套幻灯片，不过在开始放幻灯片之前，我会先问问他们的情况，比如他们是怎么开始做内容的、为什么喜欢做这个，然后就这样聊一聊。And we just make sure like that we connect from the get-go and like it's like at the end they're just like friends. We're like working together. I don't see them as just like, "Hey, a creator that I'm going to extract some videos from and never talk to again." I get on a call with them, like you said, and I have this whole slideshow, but before I go to my slideshow, I like ask them about themselves, like how they got into content, why they enjoy it, and just like have a conversation.

尽量去了解他们。然后，幻灯片的流程是这样的：我会先放一张介绍幻灯片，讲讲我自己。我会介绍自己作为创作者的背景，这样他们会尊重我，也知道我不是随便一个跑来跟他们说话的人。嗯，接下来我还会介绍我们的媒介投放人员 Eric。给 Eric 点个赞。然后我就会介绍产品。Try to get to know them. And then from there the flow of the of the slideshow is I have an intro slide where I talk about myself. I talk about my background as a creator, so like they respect me and they know I'm not just some random dude talking to them. Um and then from there I'll also intro our media buyer, who's Eric. Shout out to Eric. And then from there I explain the product.

然后我会接着解释 Tribe 是怎么运作的。我会告诉他们整个流程大概是怎样的：从他们制作视频，到视频通过审核，再到被用作广告投放。我会告诉他们，我们每 7 天结算一次，这也是另一个小窍门。你想让创作者保持积极性，他们越早获得越强烈的多巴胺刺激、越早赚到更多钱，效果就越好。And then from there I explain how Tribe works. So I like it I let them know like what they can expect in terms of the flow from them making the video to it getting accepted to it getting run as an ad. I tell them we pay them out every 7 days, which is like another um hack as well. Like you want to keep your creators motivated and the higher the dopamine rush they can get and the more money you can get them early on, the better.

嗯，所以我们会在 7 天内付款。我们会告诉他们这一点。然后我们给他们看一些广告示例，接着就在通话中帮他们完成入驻，让他们完全开始运作。这几乎就像是在促成一笔销售交易。你不想先让他们兴奋起来，等他们挂断电话后又得追着他们跑。你要非常……有策略地安排自己和他们的时间。Um so, yeah, we pay out 7 days. We tell them that. Then from there, we show them some example ads and then I get them onboarded and fully going on the call. It's almost like you're closing you're closing like a sales deal. You don't want to get them all excited and then you let them get off and then you have to chase them down. It's like you want to be very um strategic with your time and their time.

所以，我会尽量和他们见面、做自我介绍，帮他们熟悉流程并开始行动，让他们知道：“嘿，你现在就可以开始制作视频了。”So, I try to like meet them, introduce myself, get them onboarded, and get them going so that they know like, "Hey, you can start making a video right now."

说话者：所以，这里最重要的教训是，把他们当人看待。关心他们，帮助他们觉得自己是这件事的一部分，而不是只让他们觉得：“行了，你会赚钱的。别说了，别担心这些。你会赚钱的。”Speaker: So, big lesson here is treat them treat them like humans. Care about them, help them feel like they're part of this thing, not just feel like you're okay, you're going to make money. Just shut up, don't worry about it. You're going to make money.

发言人：我认为这实际上也是一种很好的超额收益来源。所以，我觉得长期来看，能够胜出的公司，是那些与创作者建立了最佳关系的公司，因为消息传播得非常快。如果你的品牌对创作者不好，不按时付款，甚至根本不付钱，或者直接把他们拉黑等等，消息就会传开，创作者可能就不愿意和你合作了，你也可能谈不到最优惠的条件，或者找不到质量最好的创作者。Speaker: And I think this is actually really good alpha as well. So, I think the companies that will win long-term are the companies that have the best relationships with creators because words word gets out really fast. And if you're a brand that treats creators bad, doesn't pay on time, doesn't pay them whatsoever maybe or you just block them, etc., word will get out and creators probably won't want to work with you or you won't get the best terms or you won't get the best quality creators.

嗯，我觉得我们非常重视的一件事，不仅是在和创作者合作时，对任何外部机构或我们合作的对象，我们都希望给予大家充分的尊重。嗯，而且我觉得，最善于做到这一点的公司，长远来看也会胜出。Um so, I think one really big thing we focus on at not even just with creators, but any external agencies or anyone we work with, we always want to treat everyone with a lot of respect. Um and and yeah, I think I think it's the companies that do that the best will will win long-term as well.

媒体采购人员与创意负责人并肩工作的角色The role of the media buyer alongside the creative lead

发言者：启动这项计划的早期团队是什么样的？一开始是只有 Hector 一个人单打独斗，还是会有一个更大的团队？Speaker: What does the early team look like to start this initiative? Is it just A Hector that is running this solo or is there a larger team that you'd start with?

说话人：说实话，团队规模确实不大。总体来说，我们的营销团队架构相当扁平。显然，我们现在在 Wispri 的发展速度快了一些。我想我们的全职员工已经超过 120 人了，这挺不可思议的。嗯，我刚加入的时候，我记得那会儿大概只有四个人。前几天我给 Snae 发消息时还提到了这事。我当时在办公室，心想：“天哪，我刚才突然意识到，周围这么多人，真是太不可思议了。”不过，是的，我们现在的团队规模还很小，以前更小。但就 Tribe 而言，要把这样的项目运转起来，真正需要的只是一个像我这样的人，负责和创作者沟通、构思新创意、审核视频，以及推动一切启动；然后还需要一位媒介投放人员。能同时胜任创意工作和媒介投放的人确实很少。我不太喜欢数字，也不算擅长和数字打交道，而且我不喜欢盯着 Meta 广告管理工具看。我听说那玩意儿很让人头疼，所以很庆幸不用做这个。不过，我们有 Eric 负责媒介投放，他会搭建我们的广告账户结构之类的。Speaker: Honestly, it's it's pretty lean. So, our marketing team as a whole is pretty flat. Obviously, we're growing a bit faster now at Wispri. I think we've passed like 120 full-time employees now, which is pretty crazy. Um because I joined I think we were like four at the time. I I remember mess- I messaged Snae the other day. I was at the office and I was like, "Holy cow, like I just had like a a moment where I was like, there's so many people around like this is crazy blah blah but yeah right now we're pretty lean team and we were even more lean before but for tribe specifically to get something like this running all you really need is someone like me to kind of be the comms with creators come up with new concepts approve videos kind of get everything kickstarted and then you need a media buyer it's pretty rare to find someone who's a creative and also media buyer I don't really like numbers that much I'm not really much of a numbers guy and I don't like staring at meta ads manager I've heard it's a headache so I'm happy I don't have to do that but yeah we have Eric on the media buying side of things and he like structures our ad account and everything

说话人：所以，这个媒介投放人员是不是那种只待在 Facebook 广告系统里做事的效果营销人员，还是……Speaker: so when this media buyer is this kind of like a performance marketing person that just lives in Facebook's ad system or

说得对，没错，Eric 基本上负责我们媒体购买这块，主要是 Facebook、LinkedIn、YouTube 等平台。Speaker: yeah exactly so yeah yeah Eric's basically just lives in our on the media buying side of things on Facebook LinkedIn YouTube etc.

说话人：明白了，所以你有点像创意这边的，负责提供内容；然后这个人接手，负责投放广告、观察效果，再优化广告支出。Speaker: got it so you're kind of like the creative you're like this the content supply and then this person takes it and then is responsible for running the ads watching performance so optimizing the spend

团队规模与结构Team size and structure

明白了。那么在那个团队早期，甚至后来，你还觉得有谁很重要、很有价值吗？got it okay and then is there anyone else that you find important valuable on that team early on and even later on

发言人：早期，回到最最初的时候，营销团队就是我们的首席营销官 Daniel、Eric 来之前担任增长负责人​​的 Matt，还有我。我当时基本上是个单打独斗的创作者，自己制作广告。后来我们也断断续续地找过一些外部代理机构，之后慢慢增加了设计岗位，还请了一位内部导演，负责制作影片和发布视频。最近我们又引入了公关。即便是现在，我觉得我们的团队还是很精简，营销团队的全职人员可能只有 15 人左右。我们有负责网红合作的创意合作负责人，也有一位名人经纪经理，帮我们敲定名人合作之类的事情。即便如此，团队仍然很精简，而且每个人都是各自领域的专家，组织结构也非常扁平，大家都有很大的自主权。Speaker: early like if we go back to the early early days the marketing team was Daniel our CMO Matt who was our head of growth before Eric came and then it was me just like as a sole creator kind of just making the ads myself so and then we had some external agencies here and there and then slowly we added on design we added on an in-house like director and how to produce films and launch videos then we introduced like PR recently and like even even now I think we're still pretty lean I think we might be like 15 people on the marketing team like full-time we have a creative partnership leads for like influencers we have a celebrity talent manager that helps us close celebrities and and things like that so even then it's it's still pretty lean and everyone is like experts in their domain and it's all very flat we all just have free reign.

我们每个人都做自己最擅长的事。没有真正的……也没有什么真正的中层管理。然后我们可怜的首席营销官丹尼尔，他简直是个传奇，手下有一大堆直接下属。嗯，所以我挺同情他的日程安排的，不过，没错，我们整个架构大概就是这样，非常扁平。没有中层管理者，大家各自做好自己的工作。We all do what we're best at. There's no real There's no really middle management. And then our our poor CMO Daniel, who's an absolute legend, he just had a bunch of direct reports. Um so, I feel sorry for his calendar, but yeah, that's that's kind of how everything is structured. It's like very flat. No middle managers. Everyone just does their work.

发言者：这次对话的一个核心结论是不是：如今做付费广告时，UGC 视频比自己制作的广告更值得采用？Speaker: Is a core kind of takeaway from this conversation that when you're doing paid today, that UGC videos are the way to go versus your own ads that you're just kind of creating?

说话人：所以，你是在比较我之前做的事情和我们现在做的事情吗？Speaker: So, are you kind of comparing to like what I was doing versus what we're doing now?

说话人：你知道，就像一提到在 Facebook、Instagram、TikTok 上投放付费广告，大多数人会觉得，我要制作一段推广产品的视频，或者做一个广告单元，说“嘿，Whisper Floss 是最棒的东西”。而你现在的做法是让其他人来制作视频，然后把这些视频作为广告投放。Speaker: You know, just like when you think paid ads on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, most people think I create a video promoting my product or create like an ad unit that is, "Hey, Whisper Floss is the best thing." And what you're doing here is you're having other people create the videos and then running that as the ad.

说话者：是的。我的看法是，我基本上就是一名内部 UGC 创作者。后来广告支出越来越高，而我也只是个普通人，没法做那么多视频；而且做广告也已经做了一年多了。所以很自然地，作为一个单打独斗的人，我开始感到非常疲惫。然后我就想：“好吧，我具备这方面的技能。”Speaker: Yeah. So, the way I look at it is like I was basically a in-house UGC creator. And it got to a point where ad spend was getting too high and like I'm only human and I couldn't I couldn't make that many videos and it was also getting into like a year plus of making ads. So, naturally I was getting pretty burnt out being a one-man show and like I was like, "Okay, I have the skill set.

“我算是个不错的创作者，也能看出谁是优秀的创作者。那为什么不干脆组建一个团队，把它当作我的延伸呢？”没错，我们基本上就是这么做的。这样我们就能更快地扩大规模，也能测试更多创意，因为我们的广告预算更高了，显然也希望同时投放更多创意。而且，一旦广告预算达到相当高的水平，广告通常会更快让受众产生疲劳感。I'm a decent creator. I can spot like good creators as well. Why not just build a team and that's like an extension of myself?" And yeah, that's that's basically what we did and we're able to scale a lot faster, test more ideas since we have more ad spend, we obviously want more concepts running. And also, like once you get to a pretty high budget on ads, your ads are typically going to reach fatigue a lot faster.

尤其是现在有了 Andromeda，广告疲劳来得快得多，因为在那之前，也就是 2024 年我们投广告的时候，一条广告可以投 12 个月。我的意思是，那时候我的产出会低很多；但现在，考虑到新的更新，以及我们投放的广告预算有多大，一条广告的花费一旦达到 10 万美元，就会失效，而这可能一个月、两周或三周就能达到。And especially with Andromeda now, ads reach fatigue even a lot faster cuz before then 2024 when we were running ads, I could have an ad running for 12 months and I mean, my my output would be a lot less, but now an ad with not only the new updates, but also how much ad spend we're running, an ad once it hits like $100,000 in ad spend, will be dead and that can be hit in like a month or 2 weeks, 3 weeks.

所以，我们一直需要更多产出、更多数量等等。我觉得，如果你看看我们的广告库，我们累计可能有 5,000 条广告，目前可能有 800 条在投放，或者 900 条左右。原因还是它们会产生疲劳效应，然后我们就得把它们关掉。不过，我们的广告、广告组，或者说广告库里，并不只有 UGC 视频，还有很多其他类型的内容。So, we constantly need more output, more volume, etc. And I think that if you look at our ad library, we might have like 5,000 lifetime ads, and maybe like 800 live currently or something like that, or 900 live currently. And it's because again, they reach fatigue, and then we have to turn them off. But, our ad our ad set or our ad library isn't only full of UGC videos. There's a lot of different things as well.

嗯，对，内容形式很多，从静态素材，到知名度很高的名人/网红视频、内部广告、我们包装成广告的发布视频，再到创始人主导的内容。种类确实很多。基本上，我想就是尽可能多尝试各种形式，因为再说一遍，我们的广告投放预算很高，说到底，素材形式越多越好。Um and yeah, everything from like statics to like high celebrity {slash} influencer videos to in-house ads to like launch videos that we package as ads to like founder led things. So, there's a lot of variety in there, and it's just just basically I mean, I guess just having as many formats as possible, because again, we have a lot of ad spend, and we want the more variety the better at the end of the day.

为什么 UGC 在技术型和企业级 SaaS 领域同样有效Why UGC works even in technical and enterprise SaaS

说话人：好。所以，UGC算是付费广告这张凳子的一个核心支柱。嗯，显然效果不错。你觉得这对每家公司都适用吗？这是不是大多数B2B……我不知道。嗯，你觉得这会有效吗？Speaker: Okay. So, this is just a a core leg uh to the stool of paid ads is UGC. Uh clearly working. Do you think this will work for every company? Is this something most B2B I don't know. Yeah, does this Do you think this will work?

发言人：我觉得这对所有人都适用，而且这也回到了我刚才说的那一点：就是找到那些能够和你想要吸引的用户交流的人。归根结底，在 Whisper，我们看到的一点是，B2B 和企业业务其实都是由一个个个体组成的。如果你能找到一种方式，让你的内容能够触达这些团队中的某个成员，也许你就能先把他发展成一个……怎么说呢，独立客户之类的？Speaker: I think this works for everyone, and it's like it goes back to what I was saying. It's just finding those users that can speak to the users you want to acquire. And at the end of the day, one thing that we look at at Whisper is like the B2B side and the enterprise side is all made up of individuals. And if you can find a way to make your content speak to an individual who's part of those teams, and maybe you get them as like a solo How do you say like a solo customer or whatever?

嗯，他们下载这个应用后开始使用，然后告诉公司里的朋友，接着公司里就会有更多人开始使用。然后，或许你再去跟进这些企业客户，最终真正谈成一笔交易。说到底，这才是大多数公司现实中可以采取的方式。并不是说：“哦，X 公司会有谁来看我的视频，然后参加企业客户洽谈，还想谈成什么交易之类的。”Um to download the app, they use it, then they tell a friend in the company, and then more people in the company start using it. And then maybe you chase down those enterprise clients and actually close a deal. And like, that's realistically how most companies can approach that at the end of the day. And it's not like, "Oh, like who from X company is going to watch my video and like hop on an enterprise call and like want to close or whatever."

不过，我觉得如果你从“公司是由人组成的”这个角度来看，想一想：“好吧，我想怎么向这些人推销？而这些人又会怎样更乐于接受推销？”嗯，我觉得你只要把事情拆解得特别简单，就会觉得：“哦，对，这对任何人都行得通。”But, I think if you like approach it from like companies are made up of people, and you just look at it like that, and you think, "Okay, how how do I want to sell to these people, and how would these people respond well to getting it sold to?" Um I think you just have to break it down super simply, and you're like, "Oh, yeah, this would work for anyone."

说话人：好的。这很有道理。嗯，不过我听下来觉得，这种方式对产品驱动增长、偏自下而上的产品可能最有效。不是 Workday 或 Salesforce 这种，而更像是 WhisperFlow、Notion 之类的产品。太棒了。而且你知道，仔细想想，这样做为什么有效也就很容易理解了。影响者本来就是能够影响你去做某件事的人。Speaker: Okay. That makes sense. Uh also, what I'm hearing though is this is probably most effective for kind of product led growth, bottom up sort of products. Not like a Workday or a Salesforce. More like a Yeah, WhisperFlow or Notion and things like that. Awesome. And you know like if you think about it, it makes so much sense why this would work. An influencer innately is someone that influences you to do something.

基本上，你就是让网红/创作者制作推广产品的内容，然后通过付费广告把这些内容推送到人们的信息流里。我明白这为什么有效，因为他们是在试图说服人们相信它有多棒。You're basically getting influencers slash creators to create content that pitches the product and then you put them in people's feed through paid ads and I get why it works cuz they're trying to convince them how awesome it

说话人：我也、我也觉得这是个很好的区分，而且我认为这不只是网红或创作者的问题。我甚至觉得，对品牌来说，没有粉丝的创作者最终反而是更好的投资对象，因为现在网红很多时候会被看作是为了钱什么都肯做的人。比如你看到一个大咖或大明星在卖某种产品，就会想：天哪，这个人过去十年来一直在卖东西给我。Speaker: I also I also think that a good distinction as well as I think it's not just an influencer or a creator. I almost think that creators with no following end up being better investments for brands because influencers kind of are seen now as sellouts a lot of the time and like when you see a big face or a big celebrity like selling a product, it's like oh my gosh this person has been selling me things like the last 10 years.

我知道她只是想赚一笔，或者他只是想赚一笔，他们其实并不是真心的；而且有种不太清楚这个人到底是谁的感觉，他们也不出名，粉丝不多。如果这些合作广告是从他们自己的账号发出来的，就会让人觉得真实得多。所以我只是想提一下这一点。I know she's just getting a bag or he's just getting a bag and they're not really genuine and there's something about like not really knowing who the person is and they're not famous, they don't have a lot of followers and if you have like these partnership ads coming from their account, it just feels a lot more genuine as well, so just want to throw that out there.

说话者：他们越不像网红。Speaker: the less they look like an influencer.

说话人：没错。Speaker: Exactly.

说话者：他们越不像是在试图说服你，只是像普通人一样聊你的产品有多棒，我就越能理解为什么这招会管用。Speaker: The less they look like they're trying to convince you and they're just talking like a regular human about how awesome your product is. I get why that would work.

给踏上创作者之路的人一些建议Advice for people embarking on the creator path

发言者：而且Speaker: And

说话人：比如，我现在想到的是，之前有人做过一个调查，问大家“你长大后想做什么”，对一些年轻人来说，答案是创作者、网红。Speaker: Like what I think about right now is there's that survey that they someone did a while ago of just what do you want to be when you grow up and for young people was like creator influencer for some

发言人：是的，直播。我觉得很多人都说，他们想当主播或直播主播。Speaker: Yeah, stream. I think a lot of people were saying they want to be a streamer or live streamer.

说话者：对，比方说宇航员或律师之类的。Speaker: Yeah, versus like astronaut or lawyer.

说话人：是的。Speaker: Yeah.

说到底，你描述的是一条职业道路。你靠做这件事赚钱。很多人确实正在通过成为网络创作者赚钱。所以，对于那些正在听、心想“等等，也许有一天这能成为我的职业，也许我该试试创作者的生活”的人，你对刚踏上这条路的人有什么建议？因为很多人可能会觉得：“我永远不可能像赫克托那么出色，也不可能在视频里即兴发挥，还显得那么有趣。”Speaker: And so you know like this is a career path is what you're describing. This is a way you're making money doing this. A lot of people are actually making money being a creator online. So for people listening that are like wait, maybe this could be a career for me someday, maybe I should explore this creator life. Any advice for someone that's embarking on this because for many people it may feel like I will never be as great as Hector or just talking off the cuff on a video and looking interesting.

对于想要探索这条道路并做得更好的人，你有什么建议吗？Any advice for someone that's trying to explore this path and do better?

说话者：我觉得最好的建议可能就是别再寻求建议了。听起来……听起来很蠢，但很多时候，都会有很多朋友联系我说：“嘿，我想开始做了。”过去大概三年里，这种事一直在发生：有人会说：“嘿，我想开始做。我想像你一样开始拍视频。”然后我会跟他们通话大概两个小时。Speaker: I think the best advice would be to stop looking for advice. It's It sounds It sounds dumb but a lot of times I'll have a lot of friends reach out and be like hey I want to get started and I've had this happen for like maybe the last 3 years where people are like, "Hey, I want to get started. I want to start making videos like you." And I hop on a call with them for like 2 hours.

我会把各种指南、PDF 文件以及我做的一些东西发给他们，告诉他们该怎么入门。可他们什么也不做。说到底，如果你是那种做事之前总要先问的人，你大概不会成功。I send them over a bunch of different guys, PDFs, things I've made, etc. for how they can get started. And they don't do anything with it. And it's like at the end of the day, if if you're a person who's going to ask before doing, you're probably not going to succeed.

即使是我有幸合作过的最优秀的人——很多都是最著名的播客主持人、网红或名人——其中不少人也会口吃，也得把内容重新拍一遍。他们还有一些特定的方法让自己重新进入状态，比如用嘴发出奇怪的声音、用手小动作不断，或者反复念一句话。我甚至见过一些创作者，在一遍又一遍地念同样的稿子之后开始频繁口吃，于是他们会把一支笔放进嘴里，把嘴张得更大，然后说话、发声，努力把每个字都说清楚。And even the best people I've had the privilege of working with a lot of the most famous podcasters or influencers or celebrities, and a lot of these people also stutter and they also have to refilm things and they have like specific things that they do to like lock back in, whether it's like weird noises they make with their mouth or like they fidget with their hands or they have like a phrase they repeat over and over again or I've even seen some creators where they start stuttering a lot after they've been doing um the same scripts over and over again and they'll put a pen in their mouth and will like open their mouth bigger and like talk and announce enunciate.

你是这么说的吗？把这些词发音清楚。Is that how you say it? Enunciate the words.

说话者：嗯。Speaker: Mhm.

说话者：嗯，我想，可能会更多一些。然后他们停下来，把笔从嘴里拿出来之后，就能把它发得更好了。所以这就像是创作者很自然会遇到的事。即使你做这个已经有5年、10年、15年了，也总会有时候得剪视频，或者会结巴，然后不得不重拍十次。你可能会对着摄像机骂几句，然后把它关掉，但就是再把它打开，继续拍，大概就是这么回事。嗯，对，这就是我的建议。Speaker: Um like I guess more and then when they stop and they take the pen out of their mouth then they were able to pronounce it better. So it's like it's like a a natural thing as a creator and like even if you're doing this for 5, 10, 15 years, there's going to be moments where you have to cut the video or you're going to stutter and you're going to have to refilm for 10 times and you might cuss out your camera and turn it off but it's just like turn it back on and keep filming sort of thing and and yeah, that'd be my advice.

先开始行动吧，别再寻求更多建议了，因为对创作者来说，没有什么比打开摄像机、发布内容更好的学习方式了。Just get started um and stop looking for for more advice cuz there's no better way to learn as a creator than than just turning on the camera and posting.

说话人：我很喜欢这个建议。而且我还听出来，当你看不到别人做这些事有多费劲时，你也不必……比如你看到这段精心剪辑的视频，却不知道他们为了……得把一根针放进嘴里。对，没错。Speaker: I love that advice. And what I'm also hearing is you don't have to like you when you don't see how much people struggle doing this stuff. Like you see this polished video and you don't know they had to put a pin in their mouth for Yeah, exactly.

发言人：或者冲着他们的摄像头破口大骂。Speaker: Or cuss out their camera.

说话人：是的。Speaker: Yeah.

说话人：嗯，就像我那条在 X 上有点爆火的视频，我想想，它是剪成了什么？15 分钟的版本吧。在那之前我可能剪了两版，每版大概花 30 分钟。然后我又做了最后那一版，应该又花了大概 30 分钟，接着把它包装成一条不错的视频。我是靠这个吃饭的，而且过去 7 个月我一直在管理我们的 Tribe 群组，我对她了如指掌什么的。即便如此，我还是觉得很难把思路理清楚、简明扼要地表达出来，还得把所有内容都梳理一遍。不过它不完美归不完美，我还是把信息传达出去了，也提供了一些价值，大家也挺喜欢的。所以，我不觉得它非得完美不可。Speaker: Um like even even my video that I that went kind of viral on X, like I think it's what? A 15-minute cut. It's probably I did two cuts before that. I would probably take 30 minutes. And then I did that last one which is probably again like 30 minutes and then I package it into a nice video. It's like I do this for a living and I managed our tribe group for the last 7 months and I know her like the like the back of my hand or whatever and even then I still struggle like going through and putting my thoughts concisely and going through everything but it's not perfect but I put the message out I gave some value and people enjoyed it and yeah I don't think I don't think it needs to be perfect.

听你这么说真是太好了，因为看你的视频时，你特别淡定、放松，就坐在那里，拿着个小 iPad 聊天。人们看到就会想：“我永远也做不到这么好。”所以听你这么说真的很有帮助。一想到要开始创作、成为内容创作者，我就觉得自己得弄个毛茸茸的小麦克风之类的。你让我觉得这就是第一步。Speaker: That's so great to hear cuz watching my video you're just so chill so relaxed just sitting there talking with a little iPad and like how yeah people see that and like I will never be as good at this. So that's really helpful to hear. When I think about starting to create being a content creator I feel like I need to get a little fuzzy mic or something. You feel like the step one.

说话者：这是佳能的……这是佳能的麦克风。Speaker: It's a Canon of it's a Canon of a mic.

说话者：没错。Speaker: That's right.

说话人：如果你没有一个小巧毛茸茸的麦克风，就不算创作者。Speaker: You're not a creator unless you have a tiny fuzzy little mic.

说话者：是的。Speaker: Yeah.

应避免的常见错误Common mistakes to avoid

说话者：嗯，我再问你最后一个相关的问题。假设有人觉得这太棒了，决定要开始做这件事、投入其中，还要招聘人员，找个人来负责运营。你觉得公司或个人刚开始走付费 UGC 这条路时，最常犯的错误有哪些？Speaker: Um let me ask you one final question along these lines. Say someone is like amazing I'm going to do this. We're going to commit to this. We're going to hire. We're going to find someone to run it. What are some of the most common mistakes you find companies people make when they're starting on this paid UGC route?

说话人：我觉得很多时候，人们通常会找错地方，可能会在网上、LinkedIn 或者其他平台发布招聘信息，开出的薪水太高，或者我想说，要求也太高了。这样你最终吸引不到最优秀的人。比如说，如果你发布一份招聘信息，说要给负责 UGC 营销活动的人开 25 万、20 万的底薪，还提供丰厚的股权——因为这些人需求量特别大——那你最后吸引来的会是类型不对的人。我加入 Whisper 时，还有 Tuan 加入 Whisper 时，我可以告诉你，我们挣的可远远没那么多。我们当时是实习生，只是些渴望学习和成长的年轻人，而且在内容方面也有一些经验。我觉得，如果你认为只要砸钱，再找个成绩最好、学校最好或者经验最丰富的人，就能找到最适合替你负责这件事的人，那你可要大吃一惊了。我会把重点放在找到一个踏实肯干、求知若渴、愿意学习的年轻人身上。就是不知道，你得对这个人有种不错的感觉。就像我前几天也跟你说过的那样，前几天我们第一次通话时，我跟 Julia 进行了第一次通话，当时她算是最初带领我们营销团队的人，那时候团队大概有四个人。Speaker: I think a lot of the times is people will typically look in the wrong places and will maybe put out offers online or on LinkedIn or whatever with too high of salaries or too high like I guess like requirements and you're not going to end up attracting the best people like if you put out an offer where you're going to pay I don't know like oh these people who are running UGC campaigns are in super high demand I'm going to put out a job listing for 250k 200k base salary uh generous equity you're going to end up attracting the wrong type of people um like when I joined Whisper and when Tuan joined Whisper I can tell you we were earning nowhere near that um we were interns and we're just hungry kids who wanted to learn and wanted to grow and again had some experience with content and I think if you just think that throwing money out there and looking for someone with the best grades or the best school or the best experience is going to get you the best hire to run this for you you're in for a rude awakening um and yeah I would focus on just finding a scrappy kid who's hungry and willing to learn and like I don't know you just got a good feeling from them like I I was telling you this the other day recently as well the other day our first call so I had a first call with Julia which she was like leading our marketing team initially when there was like four people.

后来我又和 Tanay 通了一次电话。我记得当时我就……他们要雇我当 UGC 创作者。我才 19 岁，从来没在初创公司工作过，而且我那时候可能也没赚多少钱。我就跟 Tanay 说：“我想要 Whisper 的股权。”Tanay 笑了，说：“我喜欢你，伙计。”这话可能听起来有点傻，但我觉得这也说明了……我也不知道。And then I had a second call with Tanay, and I remember like my new they're hiring me as a UGC creator. I'm 19 years old. I've never worked in a startup. And I'm probably I was not earning much money, and I told Tanay like I was like, "I want equity in Whisper." And Tanay laughed and was like, "I like you, man." And like maybe it was like a stupid thing to say, but like I think it showed how like I don't know.

我当时很天真，但也很有冲劲，而且我相信这家公司，也想成为公司的一员。就像这种信号，展现出一个年轻、天真、充满干劲的孩子，只想加入进来，想学习、想成长。然后，是的，我觉得别去不对的地方找。别想在错误的地方找，因为那样会吸引来不对的人。I was naive, but also hungry and like I believe in the company and I want to be part of the company. And just like cues like that where it's like a young, naive, hungry kid who just wants in and wants to learn and wants to grow. And then yeah, I think don't look in the right place. Don't want to look in the wrong places cuz you're going to attract the wrong people.

发言人：你曾发过几条很棒的推文，谈的就是这个意思。其中一条是：所有只想找履历最出色的营销人员的人，最后都会雇到一个机器人。Speaker: You had a couple of awesome tweets along these lines. One is that everyone looking for a marketer with the best resume is going to end up hiring a bot.

说话人：是的。Speaker: Yeah.

发言者：还有一条非常重要的推文：我见过最成功的创始人、投资者和创作者，并不是最有才华的。他们自信到近乎妄想，工作比所有人都拼命，而且热爱自己所做的事。Speaker: And then the other is this really important tweet that the most successful founders, investors, creators I've met aren't the most talented. They're delusionally confident, they outwork everyone, and they love what they do.

说话人：是的。我觉得这基本上概括了全部内容。Speaker: Yeah. I think that pretty much sums it up.

体育式招聘方法The sports approach to hiring

还有一个我最近发布的、让我很有共鸣的观点，是从体育的角度来看招聘。我来自一个竞争非常激烈的体育环境。我曾在西班牙踢球，在西甲青训学院的皇家维戈队踢过球，也在美国参加过 MLS Next，还在大学里踢过一级联赛。我们在体育队伍建设方面有一整套体系：发掘年轻人才，把他们招进来，指导他们，并花十年时间培养他们。And also another one that I that I resonate with a lot that I that I put out recently was like the the sports outlook on hiring. Sports teams, like I come from a very competitive sports background. I played over in Spain, I played for Real Vigo in La Liga Academy, I played MLS Next in the US, I played Division 1 in college. And like we have all these structures for sports teams where it's like you scout young talent, you bring them in, you coach them, you develop them for 10 years.

然后，比如说你在西班牙或者欧洲，最终可能会把他们招进自己的青训营，也许先进入二队，然后再把他们卖给顶级俱乐部。或者他们可能最终签下一份本土培养球员合同，加入你的一线队。我觉得很多初创公司也应该采取这种思路。我觉得现在其实有很多公司已经不再开展实习生项目了。And then like if you're over in Spain or over in Europe, um you eventually like get them as part of your academy, maybe the second team, and then maybe you sell them to a top club. Or maybe they end up becoming a homegrown contract or and they join like your first team. And it's like I think a lot of startups should kind of adopt that mentality. Like I I think there's a lot of companies that actually don't do internship programs anymore.

他们不觉得自己有价值。我觉得他们是最有价值的资源之一，而且如果你能找到合适的人，这件事花不了多少钱，也不会占用太多时间。嗯，我觉得，给年轻人一个机会，给他们一些钱去测试各种想法，也给他们一些自由去尝试，同时允许他们失败并继续学习，是我认为可以从体育界借鉴的最佳模式之一。显然，这种做法是行得通的。我不知道你对足球有多熟悉，但看看拉明·亚马尔就知道了，他刚刚赢得世界杯时才19岁？18岁？我觉得，同样的方法也可以用在创业领域：找到年轻人才，投资他们，让他们在真实环境中不断积累实战经验，最终他们可能会成为你团队中的核心人才。They don't think they're valuable. And I think they're one of the most valuable things, and if you can find the right people, it's not a very expensive thing to do. It's not very time-consuming. Um and yeah, I think like taking a chance on young on young people and giving them some money to to test things with and giving them some freedom to test things with um and like allowing them to fail and continue learning was like one of the best models I think you can pick up from sports and like obviously it works like I don't know if you're very familiar with soccer but I mean like look at Lamine Yamal like just won the World Cup at what 19 years old 18 years old and I I think that same approach can be applied to to the startup world like find young talent invest in them let them get real reps in the real world and then eventually they'll might be come one of your A players.

说话者：我很喜欢这一点。嗯，我也很喜欢这其中还包括给他们时间去弄明白。Speaker: I love that. Uh and I love that also part of this is giving them time to figure it out.

说话者：是的。Speaker: Yeah.

为什么优秀的营销人员对 AI 输出避之不及Why the best marketers are allergic to AI output

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说话人：到目前为止，这段对话真正有意思的地方是，我意识到我们好像一次都没提到 AI 是你这项工作的一部分，这真的很有意思，因为你知道，如今大家谈论的全都是 AI。前几天你还发了一条推文：“最优秀的营销人员对 AI 过敏。”聊聊你怎么看 AI 在这件事中能发挥什么作用，以及它不应该如何介入。Speaker: What's really interesting about this conversation so far I'm realizing is I don't think we've once mentioned AI as a part of this work that you do which is really interesting because it's you know it's it's all anyone talks about these days and you actually had this tweet the other day the best marketers are allergic to AI. Talk about just what you what you think with how AI plays into this and how AI should not play into this.

说话人：我只是觉得，总的来说，当你看很多已经完成的工作时，比如看看顶尖实验室，他们有些团队里实际参与某个具体资产制作的人数是最多的。也许他们确实把很多研究流程自动化了，或者把许多不同的步骤在内部自动化了，但资产的实际制作——无论是视频、Figma 里的设计、剪辑还是后期制作等等——都是由很多人组成的团队完成的。我觉得至少在短期内，真的没有办法绕开这一点。尤其是在我们现在所处的环境里，很多人对 AI 都很反感，谈起它也可能会觉得害怕。Speaker: I just think like overall when you look at a lot of the work done like even like looking at the top labs like they are some of the people that have the most amount of humans actually working on a specific asset and like maybe yes they have a lot of the research automated or a lot of different steps like internally automated but the actual production of the asset whether it comes to the video the design in Figma um the editing the post production etc. it's all done by teams of a lot of humans and I think there's not going to be a real way to get around on that at least not anytime soon and especially in like the environment we're in now where a lot of people are very I guess turned off by AI and it can be a scary like thing to talk about.

如果你是一家像 Whisper 这样的 AI 公司，理论上，我们是帮助人们把工作做得更好。我们不想取代任何人的工作，而是想给他们——我想——提供工具，让他们提高效率、完成更多工作，也能更自然地表达，听起来更像他们自己。If you're an AI company like Whisper who in theory we enable humans to do better work we don't want to replace anyone's job want to give them I guess the tools to be able to be more productive to do more work and to sound more naturally and to sound like themselves more naturally.

如果我们这边也出去开始做那种 AI 垃圾广告、用 AI 网红拍的视频，还有我不知道，AI 设计和 AI 静态图之类的东西，大家大概不会太买账，而且看起来就是不对劲。我的意思是，我觉得这更多是说，不要把那些最终会呈现在人们眼前的成品工作自动化。嗯，因为你经常会看到这种情况：最后反而会给公司带来反噬，不管是用 Claude 做的动画，还是他们制作的某种素材，可能里面有错别字，或者文案写得乱七八糟，就像用 ChatGPT 之类的工具来做时会发生的那样。If we on the other side go out and start making AI slop ads and videos with AI influencers and I don't know AI designs and AI statics, it's probably not going to be received really well and it just it looks off and like when I say that I think it goes more towards not automating the work that's going to be the final product that people are looking at. Um, because I think you see it a lot of times like it'll it'll end up blowing back on on the companies where whether it's like an animation that they made with Claude or um, some sort of asset that they made and maybe there's typos or maybe the writing is like all jumbled up like what happens when you do it with with open it with chat GPT or whatever.

嗯，是的，我觉得这不值得。风险和回报相比，实在不划算。Um, and yeah, I think it's it's not worth it. Like the risk versus reward is not worth it.

说话者：所以我听到的核心意思是，这项工作不要用 AI。Speaker: So the alpha what I'm hearing here is like don't use AI for this work.

说话人：是的，尤其是最终产出中创意方面的内容，也就是其他人会看到的东西，我觉得 AI 目前还不应该碰。Speaker: Yeah, for for the final output especially on the creative side like what other people are going to see I I don't think AI should should touch yet.

说话人：这真的很有意思。就像，你知道，感觉每个人都在倾向于 AI。Speaker: That is really interesting. Like, you know, people it feels like everyone's hearing leaning to AI.

说话人：是的。甚至我认识的最看好 AI 的人之一——嗯，Matt，他现在在 Victor，或者说已经退出了增长领域——他拥有我见过的全世界最多的自动化流程。但即便如此，最关键的最后那 10% 始终还是要有人把关，因为作为一个品牌，你不能冒险让事情搞砸、出错、结果不对，或者诸如此类的情况发生。Speaker: Yeah. Even even even one of the most bullish people on AI that I know, um, Matt who is now at at Victor or exited growth, he has the most automations I've ever seen in the whole wide world, but even then like that last um, like 10% that's the most important always has a human on the endpoint because you can't sacrifice as a brand having something blow up because you had something screw up or come out wrong or or whatever.

是啊，我觉得现在大家都在大量发布内容，不管是在 X、LinkedIn、Instagram 还是 YouTube 上。比如，你现在可以用 Claude 制作视频，也可以让人帮你剪辑；还可以用 AI 制作一个自己的数字分身，以及做各种各样的事情，从而更快地发布内容；还可以设置自动化流程来发推文、发布新闻文章，并以各种方式转发。And yeah, I think with everyone I think with everyone also just shipping so much volume and like whether it be on X, on LinkedIn, on Instagram, on YouTube, like you're able now to make videos with Claude, you're able to to have the edited them, you're able to make um, what's it called? You're able to make like a doppelganger of yourself with AI and and all these different things and get content out faster and have these automations for tweets and have it like post news articles and whatever and retweet it in whatever way.

噪音实在太多了，就像你说的，如果你真的更注重质量、而不是数量，也不再一味搭建各种复杂的自动化流程、为了追求数量而拼命冲量，那就很容易脱颖而出。所以，如果你确实能提供真正的价值，把它包装好，而且发帖不必太频繁，而是有目的、有实际理由地发，那么作为一个品牌或公司，你就能很容易地脱颖而出。There's so much noise like you're saying that if you actually focus more on the quality and less on the quantity and less on building all these crazy automations and hitting volume for just hitting volume's sake, it gets so easy to cut through the noise. And so if you actually have real value, you package it well, and you post like not a lot, you post with with purpose and for actual reason, um you can cut through really easily as a brand or as a company.

我觉得另一个很好的例子就是我们现在这个 YouTube 频道。我们大概是三个月前开始做的吧？发了五条视频，就已经有几百万、几千万次观看了，在 YouTube 上也有两万或两万一千名订阅者，而 YouTube 是最难做起来的平台之一。很多人会想，哦，我们要开一个 YouTube 频道，就得每周发三条视频。Like I think another good example of this is also today's YouTube channel. We started it around like what? 3 months ago, and five YouTube videos in we're like millions and millions of views, 20,000 or 21,000 subscribers on YouTube, which is one of the hardest platforms to grow. And like a lot of people think, oh we're starting a YouTube channel, we need to post three videos a week.

但事实并非如此。要是你真的投入时间和精力，讲好一个故事，做每件事都有明确目的，把它包装得很出色，而且有一支优秀的团队亲自参与其中的方方面面，嗯，最终的成果就会非常出色，人们也确实能看出你为此付出的努力。And it's like, no. Like if you actually put in the time and effort, and you tell a really good story, and you do everything with purpose, and you package it really well, and you have a really good team of humans actually touching everything in there, um you get really good end product, and people actually can see the effort you put into it.

创始人主导的内容Founder-led content

发言者：这正是我本来要说的方向，我们最后也可以聊聊另一个杠杆，就是，呃，我不知道你是不是刚看过他关于创始人主导增长的内容，还是……Speaker: That's actually where I was going to go, and this could be our final thread to chat through is just this uh other lever, which is I don't know if you just got his founder-led growth, or

发言者：是的，由创始人主导的内容。Speaker: Yeah, founder-led content.

发言人：创始人主导的内容。请大致谈谈这一增长机会，说说你们在那里看到了什么，以及通过创始人主导的内容推动产品增长的机会。Speaker: Founder-led content. Just give us kind of a sense of that growth opportunity, what you're seeing there, the opportunity to drive growth for your product through founder-led content.

说话人：是的，我觉得这也和我们刚才谈到的内容有关，比如大量的 AI、广告、公司等等。归根结底，这也回到了内容创作者和人本身。说到底，人们会向人购买，也会投资于人。我认为，如果创始人愿意公开露面、面对镜头讲话，就可以把这些内容用于广告，也可以用来讲述品牌故事，这会让公司和产品显得更加有人情味。Speaker: Yeah, I think I think it also ties into what we just talked about like so much AI and so much ads and companies, etc. And at the end of the day, it also it ties back to everything in content creator and people. Like at the end of the day, people buy from people, people invest in people, and I think having a founder who can put his face out there, can talk on camera, you can use in ads, you can use to tell the story, it makes the company and the product feel that much more human.

比如说，当你比较两款产品时，嗯，就我自己的经历而言，我会更愿意——比如说，如果我关注了，嗯，我不知道，比如说我关注了 George Heaton，他是 Represent 的创始人。他有一个服装品牌。然后我又看到另一个服装品牌的广告，那我就更可能买 George 的产品，因为我知道他是怎么做事的。And like when you compare two products, um I would much rather like even from my own experience, like if I follow um I don't know, let's say I follow George Heaton, who's the founder of Represent. He has like a clothing brand. And then there's another ad that I see for a clothing brand, I'm much more going to buy the product, George's product, because I know how he works.

我了解他的日常习惯，了解他是怎样的人，也了解他所坚持的理念。我知道他为公司付出了多少努力，真正投入了多少。我觉得大家真的很欣赏这一点。而且，在这样一个数字时代，能够和产品背后的创始人建立联系，确实很特别。你不仅能培养出超级粉丝，让那些已经在使用你产品的人更加喜爱你的产品，现在他们也会喜欢你这个人。I know his routine. I know the type of person he is. I know what he stands for. I know how hard he works um for his company and what he actually puts into it. And I think people really appreciate that and again such a digital age like being able to connect with the founder behind the product. And you not only like create super fans and like people who already use your product but now also love you.

你也会因此引入一批从未接触过你产品的新用户。他们其实不太了解你是谁，然后慢慢开始喜欢你发布的内容，开始认同你的使命，也开始认同这家公司。接着他们才会真正尝试你的产品。这就像是一种很长期的布局。我也说不准，这是一种你必须进行的长期投资，因为你不能刚开一个 YouTube 频道，或者打造一个创始人主导的品牌，就立刻开始向大家推销产品，否则大家只会直接关掉，然后说：“好吧，我不想再参与这件事了。”You also bring in like this new group of people who have never seen your product. They don't really know who you are and then slowly they start to like like the content you're putting out. They start to buy into the mission. They start to buy into the company. And then they actually try the product and it's like this long like horizon type play. I don't know this like long-term play that you have to make and it's an investment because you can't just start a YouTube channel or founder led brand and instantly start selling at people because people are just going to switch off and be like, "Okay, I don't want to be part of this anymore."

但如果你只是不断提供很多价值，分享得太多、交付得超出预期，也就敞开大门，让大家了解你们的文化、你们正在打造的东西。人们真的会很感激，也会因此认同你们、放下戒备。然后也许过了一年，我们才会有点像是开始软性推销。也许我们得说：“嘿，大家，这是一些支持……”But if you just give a lot of value, you over share, you over deliver, and you just open up the doors into like what the culture is like, what you're building. People really appreciate that and you get them to buy in and like drop their guards. And then maybe a year in we actually like maybe have like a soft seller. Maybe we have to have like, "Hey guys, here's like some support.

“谢谢大家帮我们涨到10万订阅。我只是想放出这段代码。等等。”然后大家就会想要支持你。嗯，我觉得还是那句话，在这个人人都只想要快速增长、什么都讲求快、从一开始就把一切优化到极致的世界里，这些当下可能看不出直接关联的渠道，最终反而会成为一些最好的长期布局，也能助力品牌建设。Thanks for getting us 100,000 subscribers. Just want to drop this code. Blah blah." And then people are to want to support you. Um so I think again like in this world where everyone's just trying to get like instant growth and everything's super fast and optimize everything from the start. These like channels that maybe don't have any direct correlations in the present moment end up being some of the best long-term plays and also brand building plays.

发言者：做这种创始人主导的内容时，哪些角度或故事似乎比较有效？比如讲讲我们公司的故事？Speaker: What are some of the kind of angles slash stories that seem to work well when you're doing this sort of founder led content? Is it like here's the story of our company?

说话者：是的。Speaker: Yeah.

说话人：那里有什么东西吗？Speaker: Is there anything there?

发言人：所以我们在 Whisper 内部大致是这么想的：说实话，Whisper 和其他任何公司都一样，每家公司都会有某种愿景或使命，并朝着它努力。对我们 Whisper 来说，这个目标就是达到 10 亿日活跃用户。我们在 Whisper 做的一切，都是为了实现这个目标。而当我们审视自己创作的内容时，一切都需要服务于这个愿景。Speaker: So the way we kind of thought about it at Whisper is it's like at Whisper at honestly any company is like every company is going to have some sort of story or some sort of mission that they're building towards. For us at Whisper it's getting to one being 1 billion daily active users. And that's like everything everything we do at Whisper is to get towards that goal. And when we look at the content we make, everything needs to play back into that story.

这几乎就像是在打造一部 Netflix 剧集：每一集显然都不一样，但又都围绕着同一个宏大主题。无论你们是在医疗领域、开发者工具领域创业，还是做其他事情，公司总会有某个追逐的使命。你们希望带着大家一起踏上这段旅程。And it's almost like you're building this Netflix series where each episode is obviously going to be different but it all ties back into the overarching theme. And like whether you're again building in medicine or dev tools or whatever it is, there's going to be some sort of mission that you're chasing as a company. And you want to bring people along for that ride.

如果你把这一点融入每一集，或者每篇 LinkedIn 帖子、每条 X 帖子里——当然，每个平台的格式和表达方式都不一样——但如果你能把这些内容串联起来，就能让大家一路参与其中，也会让人更容易理解，更容易在此基础上继续推进。因为你可以这样说：“好，这就是我们的愿景，这是我们努力建设的方向，而每一步又是如何真正带领我们走向那个目标的。”这就是我们的使命。And if you tie that into every episode or into every LinkedIn post, every X post, um obviously like the formatting and the messaging is different on every platform, but if you like kind of tie all of this together, it like brings everyone along from for the journey, and it makes it a lot easier to grasp, and also a lot easier to build off of because you're like, "Okay, this is the the vision, this is what we're building towards, and this is how each step actually leads us to that." It's our mission.

这几乎就像是把产品路线图，或者公司正在发生的真实情况具象化，展示给全世界看——有起有落，有挣扎，所有的一切。在 Whispers，我们大致就是这么看待它的，我也认为其他公司也应该这么看。It's almost like a physical representation of like a product roadmap or what's actually happening to the company, like showing it on on display to the world, the ups, the downs, the struggles, everything. That's kind of how we think about it at at Whispers, and how I think other companies should think about it as well.

说话者：这个建议太棒了。基本上，你要有一个指引方向的北极星，比如一个你一直追求的北极星指标。Speaker: That's awesome advice. Basically, have like a North Star, like a North Star metric that you're chasing.

说话人：是的。以及一路走来的经历，还有你正在学习的东西。Speaker: Yeah. And the journey there, and things you're learning.

发言人：一些令人惊讶的事情。我们还会引导大家去看这个频道，让他们了解你在那里实际做些什么。Speaker: Things that are surprising. And we'll point people to the channel to give them a sense of what you're actually doing there.

说话人：对，就是呃，Tanay Kothari。是的，我们基本上把所有事情都记录在那儿，比如每期内容。从展示我们如何推出新的笔记记录产品，到 Tanay 去印度采购婚礼用品，再到远程办公，以及他如何平衡工作和他与 Sahaj 的关系，嗯，还有记录创始人一周的生活。呃，我们还做过一次白板讲解，我和 Tanay 一起聊了聊。Speaker: Yeah, it's just uh Tanay Kothari, and yeah, we just document everything on there, like the episodes. They we we basically done everything from like showing how we launched our new product note taker to Tanay going to India and doing wedding shopping, and like also working remote and how he balances that and his relationship with Sahaj, um to like just a week in the life of a founder. Uh we also did a whiteboard breakdown where I spoke with Tanay.

这些不同的形式可能感觉各不相同、看起来也不一样，但最终都在共同构建一个更大的愿景，也就是 Whispers 正在努力实现的愿景。And it's like all these different formats that all might feel different and look different, but they end up like building towards this like bigger vision of what Whispers building towards.

发言者：我想，你开始做 Whisper Flow 时，它本身就已经有一些天然的吸引力了。它就像是一家公司，人们一看到它就会说：“哦，我也想……”Speaker: I imagine there's already some innate interest in Whisper Flow by when you started it. It's like a company people when they see it, they're like, "Oh, I want to."

说话人：所以，可能有点像是，你不能一开始就做这个，因为没人关心……没人关心你学到了什么，因为还没人关心你的公司。Speaker: So, there's probably a bit of like you can't start that from the beginning when no one cares about what the no one cares what you've learned cuz no one cares about your company yet.

说话人：嗯，我确实觉得你可以开始做。不过，可能这会让我们处于稍微有利一些的位置，但我的意思是，有些创始人的品牌并没有 Whisper 那么大，却也通过个人品牌内容取得了成功。而且再说一次，这就像是通往真正品牌的一道入口。还有什么方式能比通过一个人讲述自己的故事、并带来价值，更容易让人接触到品牌呢？Speaker: Um I I honestly think you can start it though. But like maybe it put us in a a bit better of a position, but I mean there's founders who don't have as brands as big as as Whisper who have found success with personal brand content. And again, it's like a gateway uh into um the actual brand. And it's like what easier way to to make that accessible than through a person who's just telling their story and getting value.

发言者：有趣的是，这可以说是又一个增长的 alpha 机会，也就是创始人以非常引人入胜的方式讲述自己的故事。Speaker: And so interestingly, this is just another, let's say, alpha opportunity to grow, which is the founder sharing their story in a really compelling way.

说话人：而且你会发现，所有事情也开始串联起来了，因为你自然触达的地方越多，和客户接触的触点越多，付费推广的成本就会越低。为什么呢？我觉得，客户——或者说，一个人——需要看到一家公司的内容大约七次，才会真正做出购买决定。如果你能通过 YouTube 长视频触达他们，就能建立起大量信任，因为这是一个长视频平台；与此同时，你还在发布创始人出镜的 Instagram Reels。Speaker: And and and you see like everything starts to tie in as well because the more places you show up organically and the more touch points you have with the customer, the cheaper it's going to get when it comes to paid because what is it? I think a customer needs to a person needs to see a piece of content of a company like seven times before they actually make a purchase. If you're able to hit them on YouTube long form, which is a bunch of trust built up since it's a long form platform and then you're also posting Instagram reels from the founder.

你也在 LinkedIn 上发帖。这样，当他们看到我的第一个广告时，就会转化。所以我觉得，这些自然流量渠道和付费渠道是相辅相成的。你激活的渠道越多、同时运行的渠道越多，所有平台上的转化成本就越低。You're also posting on LinkedIn. Then when they get to my on the first ad they see, they're going to convert. So like I think these organic channels work hand in hand with paid. Like the more that you have activated and the more you have running, the cheaper all the conversions get across all platforms.

发言者：这样一来，你的付费平台就会因这次转化而获得功劳。Speaker: And then your paid platform gets credit for that conversion.

说话者：没错。Speaker: Exactly.

说话人：最后还有一件事，我想简单聊一下。你有个很棒的视频，分享了制作创始人主导内容所需的团队配置。我简单说一下，因为我觉得这对大家来说非常重要。我会附上你深入讲解的视频链接。基本上，团队包括一位内容负责人、一位负责拍摄你的摄像师、一支负责包装内容的 YouTube 团队，以及一位短视频剪辑师，负责将内容剪辑成片段。Speaker: A final thing I just want to talk through briefly. You had this awesome video where you share what the team looks like to do founder-led content. I'll briefly share cuz I think this is really important for people. I will point to the video where you go deeper. Basically, it's a head of content, a videographer to film you, a YouTube team to package it, and short form editor to take it and create clips.

发言者：是的，完全正确。Speaker: Yes, exactly.

说话者：内容负责人是你吗？比如，你也是负责做 UGC 付费内容的人吗？Speaker: The content person, would that be you? Like are you that person also doing the UGC paid stuff?

说话人：是的，是的，是的。嗯，所以我负责内容，这也是为什么如果你找到一个懂内容的年轻人，他们基本上什么都能做，不管是自然流量还是付费推广。嗯，所以找到一个有粉丝基础的人也很重要，因为我同样懂得如何积累粉丝，现在也知道如何组建团队。有意思的是，就像我之前提到的，我团队里的每个人，无论是做 UGC，还是做创始人主导的内容，都是我通过 Instagram 快拍招聘来的。Speaker: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So Yeah, so I'm the head of content and that's why if you find a young person who understands content, they they can basically do anything whether it's organic, whether it's paid. Um and that's why it's important to find someone with a following as well because again, I understand how to build a following and I know how to build a team now and the funny thing is like how I was mentioning previously is like every person that's part of my team, whether it be for UGC or whether it be for the founder-led content team, I hired them from my Instagram stories.

我找到我们摄像师的方式是这样的：他 24 岁。我在 Instagram 快拍上发了一条动态。我记得是在五月，刚大学毕业没多久。我发帖说在旧金山找一位全职摄像师。如果你觉得自己合适，就往上滑联系我。The way I got our videographer, he's 24 years old. I posted on my Instagram story. I think it was in May, like right after my college graduation. I posted looking for a videographer full-time in San Francisco. Slide up if you're the right fit.

我记得大概有 80 个人回复了我的限时动态吧。然后其中有个叫 Alex 的小伙子，当时在澳大利亚。他是个美国人，正在澳大利亚度假。他看起来特别合适，于是我们提前三天通知，就把他接到了旧金山，并让他开始工作。YouTube 代理公司的情况也差不多。嗯，我们是在 Instagram 上认识的，现在他们已经是我的几位好朋友了。所以通常来说，最优秀的社交媒体人才，也是在社交平台上找到的。I probably had like I don't know, 80 people reply on my story. And then from there, there was this kid named Alex. He was in Australia at the time. He was an American like vacationing in Australia. And he seemed like a great fit and we flew him out to San Francisco like on 3-day notice and we got him started. And then same for the YouTube agency. Um we met through Instagram and now they're some of my close friends, so it's like typically the best social people you also find on social platforms.

差不多就是这么回事。Sort of how it goes.

发言者：拥有受众实在能带来太多好处了。这是我们即将……Speaker: There's just so much win from having an audience. It's a win we're going

说话者：是的。Speaker: Yeah.

说话者：从中得到的启示。Speaker: take away from that.

扬声器：100%。Speaker: 100%.

说话者：来自你的故事。Speaker: From your story.

为什么 YouTube 的内容包装比制作质量更重要Why YouTube packaging matters more than production quality

嗯，好吧，你在这段视频里分享的最后一点，我们也来聊聊：你有一位内容负责人，有 Hector，有负责拍摄的摄像师，还有 YouTube 团队和短视频团队。你还提到了 YouTube 的包装团队。如果必须选一个需要加强的环节，你发现 YouTube 团队其实比视频本身的质量还重要。Uh okay, so one last tidbit you shared in this video that we'll share is so you have this head of content, there's Hector, there's someone filming videographer, there's YouTube team short form. You actually shared the YouTube packaging team. If you had to kind of pick which needs to be stronger, you found the the YouTube team needs to is is more important than even the quality of the video.

说话人：是的，YouTube 通常是最难做的平台之一，所以你提到 Instagram 或 YouTube 时，我又仔细想了想，当时就说：“其实，YouTube 非常重要。”我最初也是从那里开始的。我也亲眼看到，制作 YouTube 视频需要投入多少心力。并不是说你做个视频、发出去，再配上缩略图和某种图片，就万事大吉了。说到底，我喜欢这样想：你可以做出一部堪称杰作的视频。Speaker: Yeah, YouTube is generally one of the hardest platforms, which is why when you said Instagram or YouTube, I backtracked and I was like, "Actually, YouTube is very important." And that's actually where I started as well. And I saw how much goes into making YouTube videos. Like it's not just oh, you make a video, you post it, and you put a thumbnail and some sort of picture, and then you're good. It's like at the end of the day, the way I like to think about it is you could have a masterpiece of a video.

你可以制作一部好莱坞级别的电影。但如果你配上糟糕的缩略图和一个毫无吸引力、让人不想点击的标题，实际上就没人会知道你的视频有多好。所以你可能投入了大量时间、金钱、精力和心血，才制作出这部杰作般的视频；但如果你不了解 YouTube 的运作方式，也不知道怎样才能让视频获得最高排名，呃，你就无法得到想要的结果。You can make a Hollywood production movie. But if you put a bad thumbnail and a bad title that doesn't intrigue people to click on it, no one's actually going to know how good your video is. So you might have invested all this time, all this money, all this energy and effort into making this masterpiece of a video, but if you don't understand how YouTube works and how it's actually going to rank the highest, um you're not going to get the results you want.

这就是为什么我认为 YouTube 这一块如此重要：重要的不只是缩略图、点击率、标题、观看时长或平均观看时长，还包括讲故事的方式、节奏、如何包装视频、开场白，以及缩略图如何与视频内容相呼应。视频还必须在某种程度上兑现承诺，否则观众流失率就会更高，人们也不会留下来把视频看完。And that's why I think the YouTube side is so important because it's not only a thumbnail, it's not only the click-through rate, it's not only the title, the the watch or the average view duration. It's also like the storytelling, the pacing, how you package it, the intro, how like the thumbnail needs to tie into the video and there actually needs some needs to be some sort of payoff because if you don't, then you're going to have more of a drop-off rate and people aren't going to stick along to actually watch the video.

嗯，而且你的 YouTube 团队越好，短视频这边就越轻松，因为通常你找来做短视频的人可能没那么……我想说，他们没那么投入，因为他们通常客户很多，而且也在海外。Um and like the better your YouTube team is, the easier it makes it for the short form side because typically the people that you're using for short form maybe aren't as I guess they're not as committed because they typically have a lot of clients and they're overseas as well.

比如，我们很多短视频剪辑师都来自德国。嗯，我想我们在罗马尼亚也有一位。还有一位在澳大利亚。他们确实很擅长剪短视频，但他们也想尽可能多地吸引点击。所以，他们不会太关注实际的叙事，也不太擅长挑选片段。如果我给他们40个小时的素材，最后拿回来的片段可能不是最好的。Like a lot of our short-form editors are from Germany. Um we have one as well in Romania, I think. And then one in Australia. And they're really good short-form editors, but they again want to get a lot of clicks out. So, they're not going to pay as much of attention to the actual storytelling. They're not going to be that good with the clip selection. So, if I send them 40 hours of footage, I might not get back the best clips.

而如果我的 YouTube 团队后期制作做得特别好，剪出了一条超棒的视频，那我就可以把它发给剪辑师，给他们一份没有标题、没有音乐等任何内容的干净素材。他们只要挑出最精彩的片段，把它们剪成非常出色的短视频就行了。嗯，这也就是我为什么说长视频团队是最重要的一环。Whereas if my YouTube team is really good in the post-production, they cut a super good video, then I can send that to my editors in like a clean slate with no titles, no music, etc. And they can just cut the best moments and make it into like really good short-form pieces. Um and that's that's kind of the reason why I say the long-form team is the most important part.

而且它也是点赞最多的平台。YouTube 视频可以持续很长很长时间。就连我自己的个人频道上，也有一条视频已经发布了大概 5 年。我记得大概一年前，它的播放量才 4 万左右。现在已经有 60 万了。YouTube 视频的长尾效应在所有平台里真是最持久的，简直不可思议。And it's also the one that has the most likes. Like YouTube videos can can run on for ages and ages. Like even on my own personal channel, I've had a video that's been up now for like 5 years. And I think like a year ago, it was at like what, 40,000 views. Now it's like 600,000 views. And it's like YouTube videos have so like the longest half-life out of any platform and it's truly insane.

比如，我们今天发在频道上的一些视频，几年后可能会有五六百万次观看。嗯，这就是 YouTube 很酷的地方，它就像一项长期投资。Like some of the videos we post on today's channel might be like 5, 6 million views in a few years. Um and that's what's cool about YouTube. It's like a long-term investment.

说话者：呃，我在 YouTube 上也发现了非常相似的情况。这是一个很奇妙的平台。它可能是唯一一个能让你大规模发现新用户是从哪里发现你的平台。Speaker: Uh I've discovered very similar things with YouTube. It's a wondrous platform. It's maybe the only platform where you can discover where new people discover you at scale.

说话者：没错，简直离谱。而且很多这类平台都是这样。我喜欢做内容，相信我，但有时候确实会有点打击积极性，比如“哦，你拍了一条内容，发出去了。现在得做新的了。”当然，在 YouTube 上你也得不断创作，但长期来看，你也能收获回报。不像 Instagram，你发了一段视频，48 小时后它就没人看了。Speaker: Yeah, it's insane. And it's like a lot of these platforms, I like trust me, I enjoy making content, but sometimes it's like a bit demotivating when it's like, "Oh, you filmed one piece of content, you posted it. You got to make the new one." And so, obviously with YouTube you have to as well, but you reap those rewards as well long-term. It's not like on Instagram um where you post a video and in 48 hours it's dead.

这就像 YouTube 视频一样，你在上面投入了很多心血。我们看看今天这些视频的一些数据图表，发现即使视频发布已经差不多三个月了，过去 48 小时里还是有大概一万次观看。它仍然在为我们带来效果，吸引新的观众和新客户。所以，嗯，YouTube 确实太棒了。我想你有那么多播客，应该也一样吧？那些多年前发布的内容现在还能带来这么多观看量，简直不可思议。It's like a YouTube video, you put a lot of effort into it, and we look at some of the charts on today's videos, and like we're still getting 10,000 views um in like the last 48 hours, even though it's been like 3 months since it's been posted. Like it's still working for us. It's still getting new eyeballs and new customers. Um so, yeah, YouTube is YouTube is amazing. I I I I assume also with how many podcasts you have as well, like the amount of views you're getting from like years and years back or whatever is is pretty insane.

发言人：是啊，看那些随着时间推移、排名一路攀升的视频很有意思。我在播客里请过伊丽莎白·斯通。她是 Netflix 的 CPTO，排名慢慢往上爬，现在已经紧跟在第一名后面了。她还在往上爬，正接近第一名。所以你会觉得它们好像就卡在那个名次了，但它们还是会继续往上、一直往上。就像这样，然后突然一下就变成这样，你就会想：“哦，我没想到会这样。”Speaker: Yeah, it's fun to watch videos that have kind of climb the ranks over time. I had Elizabeth Stone in the podcast. She's C P T O at Netflix and she slowly has climbed the charts to She's right behind number one now. She's like climbing on She's approaching number one and so like you think these are like stuck at that number but they just keep going going It's like this and all of a sudden it just goes like this and you're like oh I did not expect that.

我不知道。我不知道。我不太常遇到那种只是发生屈折变化的情况，不过它确实会增长，就像，哇，我都不知道它还在继续增长。I don't know. I don't know. I don't get a lot of those where it's just inflecting but it it does grow and it's like wow I did not know that was still growing and

说话者：是的。Speaker: Yeah.

闪电问答与最后的想法Lightning round and final thoughts

说话人：无论如何，赫克托，这真是太精彩了。在进入令人兴奋的快速问答环节之前，你还有什么想分享的，或者有什么想再着重强调一下、留给听众的话吗？Speaker: Anyway, Hector, this was incredible. Before we get to our very exciting lightning round, is there anything else that you want to share or anything else you want to kind of double down on and leave listeners with?

发言者：我想，我最后想提的一点，也是我提过很多次的，就是我想鼓励其他创业者给年轻人才一个机会。去找到这些人，相信他们、信任他们，给他们机会。这样做不仅能让他们成为你手下最优秀的人才之一，他们对你的忠诚度也会令人难以置信。无论他们留在你的公司，还是继续去做其他事情，他们都会一直在你需要帮助时伸出援手，帮你招揽其他年轻人才，或者在外面出现新的 Alpha 时指引你走向正确的方向。我非常感谢 Tanay、Daniel 和整个 Vista 团队愿意给我一个机会。我觉得没有比这里更好的去处了。我会永远感激他们——或者说，不知道该怎么表达，但我真的非常感激他们给我的这个机会。Speaker: I guess my last point which I mentioned a lot is like I would just urge other founders out there like give a chance like young talent and yeah, just just find those people, believe in them, trust in them, give them opportunities and yeah, like not only will they turn into some of your best A players but also the amount of loyalty they will have to is quite incredible and whether they stay at your company or they go go on to do other things like they will always be there to help you or help you bring in other young talent or guide you in the right direction when things when not new alphas out there and yeah, I'm super grateful to Tanay and Daniel and the whole Vista team for like taking a shot on me and there's no better place I think I could have I could have landed and I'm like forever in debt or however you should say that but I'm just super grateful for the the opportunity I was given.

主持人：太棒了。好，有了这些，我们就进入非常令人兴奋的闪电问答环节了。我有五个问题要问你。准备好了吗？我见过这些问题。我在播客里见过这些问题，不会感到意外。好，开始吧。第一个问题：你最常推荐给别人的两三本书是什么？Speaker: That's beautiful. Well, with that we've reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions for you. Are you ready? I've seen these. I've seen these in the in the in the podcast. Won't be a surprise. Okay, here we go. First question, what are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

说话人：我想推荐一本书。我想推荐一本特别好的书，虽然这可能有点老生常谈，但就是 Naval Ravikant 的《Naval Ravikant 的智慧》。我记得大概两年前，或者一年半前读过这本书。嗯，当时我正处在一种这样的状态：我确定自己想做内容，但也不明白这为什么重要，或者为什么这么重要。我第一次读的时候，其实没太看懂。Speaker: One of my I'm going to give one book. I'm going to give one really good book which might be a cliche one but Naval Ravikant's Almanac. I remember reading that about two years ago or maybe a year and a half ago. Um and it was like kind of in this moment where I wasn't like I was sure I wanted to do content, but I also didn't understand why it was important or why it mattered so much and like I read it the first time, didn't really make that much sense to me.

然后我就给了自己一些时间，接着事情就开始慢慢理顺了，就像书里说的那样。嗯，他是怎么说的来着？媒体可以说是最好的杠杆之一，因为你不需要征求许可，它是一种无需许可的杠杆。你只管创作内容，把它发布到互联网上，它就会持续为你发挥作用。And then I like gave me some time and then things started to like line up like it said it kind of in the book and like how um how how does he say like media is like one of the best forms of leverage because you don't have to ask for permission, it's permissionless leverage and you can just make stuff and put it out in the internet and it will continue to work for you.

嗯，我开始看到随着时间推移，主动展现自己所带来的累积效应。这本书我总是会忍不住翻回来读。嗯，我最近也给我弟弟买了一本。嗯，我总是会跟朋友分享这本书，也总是把它推荐给他们读。我觉得，在我们生活的这个疯狂世界里，它也能为年轻人指引很多方向。所以，我知道你说这是我读过的最喜欢的书之一。Um, and like I started to see that compounding effect over time of like me putting myself out there and it's a book I continue to find myself coming back to and reading. Um, I bought it for my little brother as well recently. Um, and it's like something I'm I'm always sharing with friends and always passing on to them to read as well. And I feel like it gives direction a lot to like young people as well um in this crazy world that we live in so I know you say that's one of my favorite books I've I've read.

说话人：是啊，我们都经历过那个阶段，就是在 Twitter 上分享这些深刻的建议。后来他也慢慢不怎么发了，我很喜欢有一本书把这些内容都收集了起来。嗯，我很喜欢这一点。很多建议你看到时会觉得，嗯，还行，然后过后再想起来就会觉得，哇，他说得真他妈对。Speaker: Yeah, and I've all went through this era of just sharing this profound advice on Twitter and then he kind of slowed down and and I love that there's a book that collects it all. Um, and I love that. So much of advice you to like you see it and you're like yeah, it's fine and then you think back to wow, he was so damn right.

说话者：你有没有读过，呃，那个叫什么来着，《自我是敌人》？Speaker: Have you have you read uh what's it Ego is the enemy?

说话者：那是一本书，还是他的一句台词？Speaker: Is that a is that a book or is that one of his lines?

说话人：不，这是一本，是一本新书。我想我想它好像叫……我只是想知道你有没有读过，因为我对读它很感兴趣。我正打算买。嗯，我得去趟书店。这不是波多黎各唯一一家书店。嗯，不过，我正在找一本新书，所以如果有人想在视频下面留些评论，嗯……Speaker: No, it's a it's a new book. I think I think it's called something like I was just wondering if you read it because I was interested in in in reading it. I was about to buy it. Um, I need to go to a bookstore. It's not the only bookstore in Puerto Rico. Um, but yeah, I'm looking for a new book so if anyone wants to drop some comments on the video um

说话者：好的。亚马逊配送到波多黎各吗？Speaker: Okay. Does Amazon deliver to Puerto Rico?

是的，不过就是有点……住在岛上需要一段时间适应。一切都慢很多，带来的多巴胺刺激也少很多。你也享受不到24小时送达。Speaker: Yes, but it's like a bit it takes it takes a while living on an island. Everything is a a lot lower lot slower less dopamine rush. You don't get 24-hour delivery.

说话者：我很喜欢这个。好，接下来一个问题。最近有没有哪部电影或电视剧特别合你的心意？Speaker: I love that. Okay, next question. Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you have really enjoyed?

说话人：我刚和女朋友看完了伊丽莎白·霍姆斯的电影。嗯，我就不剧透了，但真的很精彩。这是一部非常好看的电影。Speaker: I just watched the Elizabeth Holmes movie with my girlfriend. Yeah, I'm not going to spoil it but wow. It was a really good movie.

说话人：有人分享了一件预告片里的事，这不算剧透。呃，就是预告片里他们互相盯着对方看时，他把舌头伸进嘴里，嘴巴好像在做什么奇怪的动作。Speaker: One thing that someone shared from the trailer, this is no spoiler. Uh when when he's you know that trailer when they're kind of staring at each other and he kind of puts his tongue in his mouth like his mouth is kind of doing something funny.

发言人：是的。Speaker: Yeah.

说话人：呃，原来他在努力忍住不笑、或者不想破功的时候，会把舌头抵在臼齿上，用力顶住，这样就能让自己不笑出来。怎么样？Speaker: Uh he Turns out when he's trying not to laugh or just get break character, he puts his tongue against his molars and just presses against them to keep himself from laughing. How about that?

说话者：我不知道这件事。嗯。不过，那确实是一部好电影。我喜欢。Speaker: I did not know that. Yeah. But yeah, it was it was a good movie. I liked it.

说话人：Epic。好，下一个问题。你现在正在使用的最喜欢的 {slash} 最有意思的 AI 产品是什么？呃，最好不是 WhisperFlow。Speaker: Epic. All right, next question. Favorite {slash} most interesting AI product you're using right now. Uh ideally not WhisperFlow.

说话人：说真的，前几天我在你的帖子下面留言了，Miso。我也不知道，你最后到底下载了没有？Speaker: Honestly, I got to get I commented on your your post the other day, Miso. I don't know. Did you end up downloading it or not?

说话人：我刚试着了解了一下。它就像是个旅行工具，对吧？Speaker: I just tried to check it out. It's like a travel tool, right?

说话人：是的，我是旅行社代理，而且我经常旅行。我想今年到目前为止，我大概坐了55趟或60趟飞机。Speaker: Yeah, it's a travel agent, and I travel a lot. I think I have like 55 flights or 60 so far this year.

说话者：天哪。Speaker: Jeez.

说话人：嗯，大概有89,000英里吧。旅行一直是我不太期待的事，因为订机票之类的事情挺累人的。嗯，我最近在 X 上看到他们推出了这个产品，就在 Instagram 上给创始人发了私信，说：“嘿，把我从候补名单里弄出来吧，我想试试这个。”从我下载它到现在，差不多已经3个月了。Speaker: Um like 89,000 miles, and traveling is always something I'm like not looking forward to because it gets pretty tiring like having to book the flights and everything. Um and I recently came across this product when they launched on X, and I DM'd the founders on Instagram, and I was like, "Yo, get me off the wait list. Like I want to try this out." And ever since I downloaded it, it's now been like 3 months.

我简直停不下来，一直在用它，还不停推荐给朋友。举个例子，前几天我睡过了闹钟，错过了从波多黎各飞往旧金山的航班。我醒来后就给 Miso 发了短信，说：“嘿，我错过航班了。能帮我订下一班吗？”然后我什么都不用再做了。它把一切都安排好了，大概两小时后就帮我订上了下一班航班。Like I can't stop using it and recommending it to friends. And like just an example, like the other day, I slept through my alarm, and I missed my flight to SF from PR. And I texted I woke up. I texted Miso. I was like, "Hey, I missed my flight. Can you get me on the next one?" And I didn't have to do anything else. Like took care of everything, booked me on the next flight in like 2 hours.

我就放松等着，没多付任何额外费用。嗯，它就像是我用过的最好的旅行代理。嗯，显然 Instinct 是个不错的代理，各方面都挺好，但我觉得在旅行方面，它完全没那么快。还有，Miso 另一个很棒的地方是，后台有人工团队可以升级处理问题。比如代理卡住了，他们就能直接联系各大航空公司，等等，然后升级处理问题，帮你搞定。I just chilled, didn't have to pay anything extra. Um Yeah, it's like it's like the best travel agent I've tried before. Um like obviously Instinct is is a good agent and everything, but I don't think for travel it's anywhere as fast. And then what's also cool about Miso is they have humans on the back end that will escalate things. Like if they if the agent gets stuck, they have like direct connections to every major airline um and everything, and they can escalate things and take care of it for you.

所以，它就像救命稻草一样。我只要发条短信说：“嘿，我想订张机票。”它就知道该怎么做，直接把信息发给我，我大概两分钟就能订好。So, it's like a lifesaver. I can just text and say, "Hey, I want a flight." And it knows, and it'll just send to me, and I'll get it booked in like 2 minutes.

说话人：这也太酷了。我查了一下，就只是 miso.com 吗？Speaker: That is extremely cool. I looked it up. It's just miso.com?

说话者：是的。Speaker: Yeah.

说话人：miso.com。多棒的域名啊。呃，我想你应该和他们没有任何关联。你只是个粉丝，而且就像……Speaker: miso.com. What an amazing domain. Uh I imagine no affiliation. You're just a fan. and just like

说话者：是的，没有隶属关系。Speaker: Yeah, no affiliation.

太酷了。好，梅萨，你来吧。好，再问两个问题。你有没有一句最喜欢的人生格言，在工作或生活中经常会想起？Speaker: So cool. Okay, go Mesa. Okay, two more questions. Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to in work or in life?

说话者：是的，我有一句特别喜欢的人生格言。我不知道自己会不会把它说得乱七八糟，所以也许你能帮帮我。这句话出自史蒂夫·乔布斯：你无法预先把人生的点滴串联起来，但回顾过去时，却总能把它们串联起来。比如，当我回顾自己的人生时，几乎在每件事上都能看到这一点。就像我从来都不是学校里最聪明的孩子。Speaker: Yes, I have a I have a life motto that I like a lot. I don't know if I'm going to butcher this, so maybe you can help me, but it's from Steve Jobs that you can't always connect the the dots looking forward, but you can always connect them looking backwards. And like when I look into my own life, like I see that basically in everything. Like I was never the smartest kid kid in school.

就像我爸妈一直都挺对我失望的。我有很严重的 ADHD。足球几乎是我唯一拥有的东西，后来我失去了它，然后我就迷失了好几个月，尽管那时我在 Whisper。我不太明白发生的这一切，也不明白自己16岁时为什么会拿起相机，为什么开始在 YouTube 上发视频，或者为什么会参加体育运动。Like my parents were always pretty frustrated with me. I had really bad ADHD. Like soccer was the only thing I had, and then I lost it, and then I was like lost for for a few months even though I was at Whisper, and I didn't really understand all the things that were happening or why I even picked up a camera when I was 16 or why I started posting on YouTube or why I played sports.

现在回头看，一切都那么清晰，那么合情合理，我也明白自己人生正走在怎样的道路上。And like now looking back, like everything is so clear, makes so much sense, and like I understand the path I'm on on life.

我觉得有时候你就是得继续坚持下去，到了最后，一切自然都会明白。对，我觉得这是我最喜欢、会时常回想的一句话之一。And like I think sometimes you just got to keep going, and and then it'll all make sense at the end. And like yeah, I think that's one of my favorite quotes I would back on.

发言人：我也觉得这话说得非常对，史蒂夫·乔布斯又一次说中了。Hector，这次分享太精彩了。非常感谢你分享这么多。你真棒。最后一个问题，听众能怎样帮到你？Speaker: I also find that to be very true, and Steve Jobs nailed it again. Hector, this was incredible. Thank you so much for sharing so much. You're awesome. Final question, how can listeners be useful to you?

说话者：我是说，如果你们想在 X、Instagram 或 YouTube 上关注我，想关注哪个都行。来一起踏上这段旅程吧。Speaker: I mean, if you guys want to follow me on X or on Instagram or YouTube, whatever you guys want. Come and join the the journey.

发言者：你的用户名就是 Hector Serrano Serrano。Speaker: And your your handle is just Hector Serrano Serrano.

说话人：嗯，这个在各个平台上都挺、挺相似的。就像赫克托·塞拉诺一样。你总会找到我的，不过，嗯。Speaker: Yeah, it's it's pretty it's it's pretty similar across platforms. It's like Hector Serrano. You'll you'll find me one way or another, but yeah.

发言人：Hector，非常感谢你今天到场。Speaker: Hector, thank you so much for being here.

发言人：谢谢。谢谢。Speaker: Thank you. Thank you.

主持人：各位，非常感谢收听。如果你觉得这期节目对你有帮助，可以在 Apple Podcasts、Spotify 或你常用的播客应用中订阅我们的节目。另外，也请考虑为我们评分或撰写评论，这真的能帮助其他听众找到我们的播客。你可以在 lennyspodcast.com 收听所有往期节目，或了解更多关于本节目的信息。我们下期再见。Speaker: Everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com. See you in the next episode.